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doublestufforeo
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So after the Townhall in which @MadCast: Chibiushi brought up the Kal situation, I decided to do a bit of research in the Discord.

In #other-games-chat you can find this lovely excerpt between Kal and @MadCast Maday.

Quote

MadCast Maday — 09/13/2021
uh oh
[3:04 PM]
(Linked video on KOTOR by The Quartering)
Man HATING SJW Hired To Re-Write Knights Of The Old Republic Admits...

[3:04 PM]
So it's a rewrite and reboot.  Not a remaster.... yikes

Kal — 09/13/2021
Fuck the Quartering and anything he has to say

MadCast Maday — 09/13/2021
Irregardless of him, I have the concern over the fact the game is being rewritten as opposed to a remaster that most everyone would prefer

Kal — 09/13/2021
Cool, maybe someone without a history of abusive practices has a breakdown

MadCast Maday — 09/13/2021
Again my primary point of discussion here is why Bioware is feeling the need to rewrite KOTOR as opposed to remastering them

Kal — 09/13/2021
Dude, just google some of the shit he pulled and decide whether linking to a transphobe is appropriate, especially given the doxxing, harassment and death threats generated by videos he made.

In which the conversation goes on to continue about KOTOR and never acknowledges the issues with the person whatsoever, Maday dismisses them with an "irregardless of him".

As someone who has worked so hard on inclusiveness and education for the queer community within this community, I'm rather disappointed by this response. Kal was one of the people who helped spearhead the tags for gender identity within the Discord, you'd think that his voice would've been at least acknowledged on an issue he obviously holds very dear.

The Quartering isn't someone who represents the MadCast values that we have worked so hard over the years to uphold. If you wanted to have a conversation about the rewrite, or even about Sam Maggs herself, you could very easily have pulled from a slue of different sources.

I understand people make mistakes, and always give the BOTD, but Maday you failed to acknowledge your member's concern here, you failed to extend the BOTD towards your fellow member. Someone who has put work into being an admin for this community, someone who has put their time in much like yourself to host events, to garner members, and you dismiss their concerns.

Now obviously I don't know what's said behind closed doors here, and can only speculate as I'm pulling from public knowledge and my own personal experiences within MadCast over the years, but ultimately it led to Kal no longer being a member. If the Code of Conduct was followed by the one of the communities' namesake:

Quote


    Don't be toxic, and respect everyone you encounter.
    Do not use slurs of any kind.  They are unwelcome here.
    Read the room for when certain humor or topics are acceptable.
    Respect your local laws.  No discussion of illegal substances or activities anywhere within MadCast assets

 

We wouldn't be down an invaluable member to this community.

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Maday - like anyone reading this post - can respond to this as they like. Your opinions, DSO, are subjective by nature. The content of what we are discussing, is extremely subjective, and a point of passion for many folks here. I expect some people will have their perspectives challenged in this thread. I also expect everyone to engage in as respectful, mature individuals in this thread. Because a large part of this discussion will hinge on the participants either being accepting of any differences encountered, or the difficult task of agreeing to disagree.

If you (reader) don't feel you can handle that: Don't engage here.

 

 

I'm not going to speak for Maday. I am speaking for me, and what my personal take is on how a community like ours should interact with each other. You won't be able to read this post without the implication of what comes with any Staff opinion, so no matter how I preface this it will read as the opinion of MadCast. 

I don't say that to muzzle any member or founder. The opinions in the OP are subjective, as are my own. I expect no-one to 'fall in line' simply because I said it.

 

I've had some time to revisit and think on the Kal and Maday's interaction, and how it was a failure of both individuals. 

Having a leader of this community refusing to consider another perspective or what it implied was an issue in the moment that should not have happened. Having a member - a previous admin - unable to convey those terms in a way that befits the Code of Conduct was another. I regret what happened, and I regret that two members of our community could not engage in a matter that could have been a learning moment for those involved. It could have been an issue conquered by respect. It should have been an issue resolved by mature individuals that understood the necessity of our Code of Conduct.

It wasn't.

All of this would have been handled if members respected each other. There would never have been the argument on what a content creator stood for and how you support their message by providing them views. There never would have been indifference had the situation been explained with eloquence and the intent to educate. No error is greater than the other here. This was a failure to respect on both accounts.

What was worse was that one person party to the issue, unfortunately, felt it necessary to no longer be a member. My opinion on their reasons, or the value that member provided to the community is irrelevant. Their decision played part to an issue unresolved, which lead members having concerns, which lead to you making this post. The resolution of this post/issue for the community is now a part our continual effort to be better people. We are fallible individuals that are a part of a community that strives to be greater.

 

 

The community I want to lead/celebrate/work for/simply be a part of is above all a respectful one. I fail to adhere to that at all times, and I've seen two members falter here too.

As I said to the members I spoke to after Town Hall: This is not the first time we have had subjective topics with individuals disagreeing and it leading to a failure to respect one another. This is not the first time that we will be required to challenge our individual views on issues that may or may not have been encountered.

Our responsibility as a community - as members of all levels of MadCast - is to maintain an environment where we are not toxic, and where we respect everyone we encounter.

 

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On 10/7/2021 at 1:54 AM, MadCast: Epic said:

Having a leader of this community refusing to consider another perspective or what it implied was an issue in the moment that should not have happened. Having a member - a previous admin - unable to convey those terms in a way that befits the Code of Conduct was another. I regret what happened, and I regret that two members of our community could not engage in a matter that could have been a learning moment for those involved. It could have been an issue conquered by respect. It should have been an issue resolved by mature individuals that understood the necessity of our Code of Conduct.

Ya know, I don't normally pop into here for too much these days, for a plethora of reasons, but this sort of response is to something that should matter is one of the reasons why I'm distant.

This response reeks of the "both sides" arguments that have always frustrated me during my long tenure in MadCast. The expectation that someone should "respectfully" engage with content from someone who has shown themselves to be racist, encouraged abuse of marginalized people, and has a general disrespect for anyone that disagrees with him is not the same as ignoring those facts.

On 10/6/2021 at 4:24 PM, doublestufforeo said:

Kal — 09/13/2021
Cool, maybe someone without a history of abusive practices has a breakdown

The man said fuck the Quartering because, FUCK THE QUARTERING. But the follow up response of 

 

On 10/6/2021 at 4:24 PM, doublestufforeo said:

Kal — 09/13/2021
Cool, maybe someone without a history of abusive practices has a breakdown

Was not disrespectful of Maday or of the point. It was a disrespect for the Quartering. The correct response to this should've been, "my bad. I didn't know this person had hurt people. I only wanted to speak to the point about KOTOR." Instead Maday ignored instead of acknowledged

You get why that's a problem, right?

This Quartering dude has come after people that are my friends. Encouraged doxxing of them. Swatting on them. Saying something like, "fuck that guy" is practically a PG response when you consider how awful he is. You can't expect someone who has seen this in action to be nicer about how awful it is. So please, for the love of god, save the "both sides" arguments/defenses.

We wanna call ourselves inclusive here, and by definition (def. not excluding any of the parties or groups involved in something) we are. That doesn't mean that marginalized people will want to be here though. I can understand that cis white male won't understand why the Quartering is harmful just watching a video or two. The problematic parts go in an ear and out another. The problem is that the marginalized, when we point out the issues, are also expected to educate cis white male on why these things are bad. And if we don't and we just say,

On 10/6/2021 at 4:24 PM, doublestufforeo said:

Kal — 09/13/2021
Dude, just google some of the shit he pulled and decide whether linking to a transphobe is appropriate, especially given the doxxing, harassment and death threats generated by videos he made.

we are considered to be disrespectful. It's tired. We're tired. I can understand why Kal left. What else do you do when inclusivity only feels surface deep?

Now, before we go on one of those things where shit gets taken wildly out of context. I don't think Maday shares the same values as the Quartering. I don't think Epic has intentionally tried to ignore the reasons I pointed out that what Kal said was justified and not disrespectful to Maday, or that Maday intentionally tried to run off Kal. I just don't think y'all get it. That doesn't make it better. That doesn't fix it, but that's what it is. Ignorance can be bliss for some, but incredibly hurtful for others.

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I am incredibly dismayed by this turn of events.

I have sat through a variety of discussions over 8 years of my time as an administrator, and what was drilled into me a thousand times over was that a member in good standing's concerns are to be taken with gravity, and that did not happen here.

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On 10/7/2021 at 1:54 AM, MadCast: Epic said:

Your opinions, DSO, are subjective by nature. The content of what we are discussing, is extremely subjective, and a point of passion for many folks here.

What is not subjective is that a namesake of this community broke the CoC, plain and simple. It's right there in your own rules and regulations. The very thing that you've pushed as integral to this community from day one.  It's even listed in the Welcome page on the Discord as the second link to be observed, right below the gender identity tags.

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2 hours ago, doublestufforeo said:

What is not subjective is that a namesake of this community broke the CoC, plain and simple. It's right there in your own rules and regulations. The very thing that you've pushed as integral to this community from day one.  It's even listed in the Welcome page on the Discord as the second link to be observed, right below the gender identity tags.

Yeah, absolutely. Frankly, I'm not sure why the preamble of my post started with " Your opinions, DSO..." as if you needed to be educated on the fundamentals of opinions and what makes them. Sorry.

I'm very hard set that our community and it's members would be able to tackle all issues by route of respect and understanding. I've also stated my feelings on how I felt Maday handled the situation wrong, and how it was a failure of the Code of Conduct.

Please give Maday some time to respond to this thread.

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As to the bits that occurred in the Discord Other Games Chat channel:  My linking of the video from TheQuartering of which is a topic based on SW:KOTOR was ONLY meant to be a contextual basis for the conversation directly about SW:KOTOR and the basis by which the devs have opted to do a re-write of the game as opposed to a straightforward remaster.  Absolutely nothing more is meant from that linking.  Most anyone who knows me would understand that I do not make posts with the intent to be inflammatory nor malicious.  At that time, it was as simple straightforward as that for me.

The conversation with Kal is directly where we have clear difference of opinions on things.  He asked me my opinions on subjects and I gave him MY opinions.  He then replied that he was going to take some time and think on my responses.  That's the last I heard from him.  He never contacted me again on talking about anything further.  The next I heard of him is when he resigned his Full Membership.  With his lack of follow-up I have no way of knowing if he was OK with my responses or not.  It's always extremely regrettable to see a member leave, and that hits me harder knowing I was likely the cause.  Despite our differences of opinion, it doesn't sully the time I spent gaming with Kal and hope the best for him on his endeavors.  It's is ultimately regrettable that my intentions were lost in our conversation and we never had the opportunity to properly settle and clear the air.  I am sorry for the disrespect that happened on my end to Kal, and endeavor to improve on these types of handlings in the future.

Then the private conversation post Town Hall is definitely an area that is personally regrettable for me.  After nearly a full month removed from my Kal interaction I was being accused of a myriad of things and my emotional response kicked in.  I am still a fallible human and still have defensive emotional responses.  Such response resulted in an outburst from me at Chibiushi.  I was put into check and the room was calmed down and once I had an space of opportunity I did offer my apologies to Chibi in the presence of everyone there.  He then requested to talk to me privately of which I accepted and spent a justly and fair amount of time hashing out our differences and misunderstandings.  By the end of our conversation we were shooting the general breeze on things and maybe even catching up once more when various Pandemic things calm down to openly allow such things.

Where I go from here, is that of reflection, assimilation of information, keeping that information in the forefront of my mind until it is common muscle memory for future instances.  I now have a much better understanding of when I need to remain silent and not offer responses as too much emotion would be intertwined in said response.  Even as a Founder I am susceptible to missteps and still have a reliance on not only my fellow admins and members but even the people I may have wronged are free to open those lines on communication with me.  Even in all the years MadCast has been operating there is no precise step by step to prevent individual/personal missteps as that really is a fact of human nature.  

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9 minutes ago, MadCast Maday said:

My linking of the video from TheQuartering of which is a topic based on SW:KOTOR was ONLY meant to be a contextual basis for the conversation directly about SW:KOTOR and the basis by which the devs have opted to do a re-write of the game as opposed to a straightforward remaster.

How thick is your skull dude? If you wanted to get that point across you could simply link any other source out there with a background that isn't covered in hatred, bigotry, and tyranny against people who exist, or are personal friends of those in your own community. You now have double downed on defending the Quartering after someone of a decade in your community has informed you of their ways.

You've crossed the line from ignorance to stupidity at this point. You can keep defending your original stance all you want, but as a founder of this community, you're now tying it to The Quartering's by defending it so much. Know when to hold em' and know when to fold em' dude.

18 minutes ago, MadCast Maday said:

The next I heard of him is when he resigned his Full Membership.  With his lack of follow-up I have no way of knowing if he was OK with my responses or not.

I mean clearly not.

 

19 minutes ago, MadCast Maday said:

I am sorry for the disrespect that happened on my end to Kal, and endeavor to improve on these types of handlings in the future.

At this point it's further than just Kal. You're now dealing with other communities of minorities by defending your stance on The Quartering and not seeing the forest from the trees. You can't simply put "inclusive" as an adjective among adjectives in your community, you've got to do more than say it.

 

21 minutes ago, MadCast Maday said:

I am still a fallible human and still have defensive emotional responses.

What I don't understand is how you're able to see the error in your ways with your "emotional response" to Chibi, but you never extended that BOTD to Kal originally. Or again in this thread when it's all spelled out for you, and you continually miss the point.

On 10/8/2021 at 12:16 PM, MadCast: The Prince said:

It's tired. We're tired.

My sentiments exactly Prince.

 

Dear Maday,

I'm tired. I have loved most of my three and a half years here. I've made great friends, I've put so much passion into projects for your namesake. I'm tired. I keep the reasoning why I turned in my tags in the penthouse, but I will put the reason as to why I'm leaving this Discord all together right here on display for everyone to read. I'm tired. I can not in sound mind and conscience bring people, like me and part of my community, to this one anymore. I will not be the drop of water that paves the river in this community for inclusiveness. I'm tired.

I'm tired of seeing you in Discord playing video games for hours on end instead of working on repairing the hemorrhaging by acknowledging the issues at hand here.  I'm tired of seeing your repeat behavior very apparent in this thread, as much as it was with your initial conversation with Kal; you're dismissive, and fail to see the point at hand. I'm tired of trying to teach people like you the error in your ways. I'm not here to change your mind or your core values and beliefs, but in my time here I spent trying to be an advocate for mine. It has become very apparent to me that my community is unwelcome in yours. I'm fucking tired.

 

//

 

To all my friends I've made along the way,

I thank you all so much for the last three+ years. It has been so wonderful to be able to hop onto Discord and make genuine connections. I've developed and grown so much with you all, and I'm very happy to have that in my life. I wish you all the best.

Love,

Caleb "doublestufforeo" Stone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, MadCast Maday said:

At that time, it was as simple straightforward as that for me.

I guess my biggest issue here is that regardless of your intent on the discussion, a FM asked you to remove it and use another source. To him, it was as simple straightforward as that. I feel like I shouldn't ever have to explain myself to anyone here if I ask someone to remove a video that was offensive to me. Kal never once asked you to stop discussing the topic, but to use different material and laid out a reason. I really feel like that's where you are ultimately in the wrong. Like full stop. That alone is enough in my mind for an apology to Kal. To my knowledge, I don't think that's ever happened.

 

To DSO, going to miss you a lot. You brought a ton to this Discord and community, but I completely understand. Hope to see you around on the rift with those Lux buffs. ❤️

-Dez

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9 hours ago, MadCast: Dez said:

I guess my biggest issue here is that regardless of your intent on the discussion, a FM asked you to remove it and use another source. To him, it was as simple straightforward as that. I feel like I shouldn't ever have to explain myself to anyone here if I ask someone to remove a video that was offensive to me. Kal never once asked you to stop discussing the topic, but to use different material and laid out a reason. I really feel like that's where you are ultimately in the wrong. Like full stop. That alone is enough in my mind for an apology to Kal. To my knowledge, I don't think that's ever happened.

Yes, that was indeed a failure of mine in the moment.  Something that I will absolutely strive to improve upon and have better reactions from now and forward.  It's regrettable to me in hindsight and I am sorry that I missed the opportunity.

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@doublestufforeo@MadCast: The Prince@MadCast: Munsa@MadCast: Dez

Thank you all for having the courage to come out and speak up on this matter. Thank you for bringing new information to the table, and thank you for fully representing the ideas that you wanted MadCast to hold. I'm sorry that you weren't backed up sooner by the admin team, and I'm sorry that I didn't have a full understanding of what's going on.

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Hey guys.

 

This:

On 10/6/2021 at 11:54 PM, MadCast: Epic said:

 

Maday - like anyone reading this post - can respond to this as they like. Your opinions, DSO, are subjective by nature. The content of what we are discussing, is extremely subjective, and a point of passion for many folks here. I expect some people will have their perspectives challenged in this thread. I also expect everyone to engage in as respectful, mature individuals in this thread. Because a large part of this discussion will hinge on the participants either being accepting of any differences encountered, or the difficult task of agreeing to disagree.

If you (reader) don't feel you can handle that: Don't engage here.

 

 

I'm not going to speak for Maday. I am speaking for me, and what my personal take is on how a community like ours should interact with each other. You won't be able to read this post without the implication of what comes with any Staff opinion, so no matter how I preface this it will read as the opinion of MadCast. 

I don't say that to muzzle any member or founder. The opinions in the OP are subjective, as are my own. I expect no-one to 'fall in line' simply because I said it.

 

I've had some time to revisit and think on the Kal and Maday's interaction, and how it was a failure of both individuals. 

Having a leader of this community refusing to consider another perspective or what it implied was an issue in the moment that should not have happened. Having a member - a previous admin - unable to convey those terms in a way that befits the Code of Conduct was another. I regret what happened, and I regret that two members of our community could not engage in a matter that could have been a learning moment for those involved. It could have been an issue conquered by respect. It should have been an issue resolved by mature individuals that understood the necessity of our Code of Conduct.

It wasn't.

All of this would have been handled if members respected each other. There would never have been the argument on what a content creator stood for and how you support their message by providing them views. There never would have been indifference had the situation been explained with eloquence and the intent to educate. No error is greater than the other here. This was a failure to respect on both accounts.

What was worse was that one person party to the issue, unfortunately, felt it necessary to no longer be a member. My opinion on their reasons, or the value that member provided to the community is irrelevant. Their decision played part to an issue unresolved, which lead members having concerns, which lead to you making this post. The resolution of this post/issue for the community is now a part our continual effort to be better people. We are fallible individuals that are a part of a community that strives to be greater.

 

 

The community I want to lead/celebrate/work for/simply be a part of is above all a respectful one. I fail to adhere to that at all times, and I've seen two members falter here too.

As I said to the members I spoke to after Town Hall: This is not the first time we have had subjective topics with individuals disagreeing and it leading to a failure to respect one another. This is not the first time that we will be required to challenge our individual views on issues that may or may not have been encountered.

Our responsibility as a community - as members of all levels of MadCast - is to maintain an environment where we are not toxic, and where we respect everyone we encounter.

 

and this:

On 10/10/2021 at 11:16 PM, MadCast: Epic said:

Yeah, absolutely. Frankly, I'm not sure why the preamble of my post started with " Your opinions, DSO..." as if you needed to be educated on the fundamentals of opinions and what makes them. Sorry.

I'm very hard set that our community and it's members would be able to tackle all issues by route of respect and understanding. I've also stated my feelings on how I felt Maday handled the situation wrong, and how it was a failure of the Code of Conduct.

Please give Maday some time to respond to this thread.

Are only true if it's meant, and it can't truly be meant if you foundationally cannot respect someone's perspective. 

And while I wholeheartedly believe that respect can conquer all situations, last night I was given clear context in the conversation through the sharing of screenshots. I slept on it, and I am deeply saddened. I've never recognized myself to be more tone deaf in my 10+ years of loving this place. For that I am sorry. To everyone that participated, and has read this thread. 

1 hour ago, MadCast: Mandalorian said:

@doublestufforeo@MadCast: The Prince@MadCast: Munsa@MadCast: Dez

Thank you all for having the courage to come out and speak up on this matter. Thank you for bringing new information to the table, and thank you for fully representing the ideas that you wanted MadCast to hold. I'm sorry that you weren't backed up sooner by the admin team, and I'm sorry that I didn't have a full understanding of what's going on.

I wholeheartedly agree. 

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