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S5 Jungle Facts and Tips

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Jungle mains are at an all time low with jungle overhaul. I was wondering if any of our Jungle mains have any advice, tips, or tricks for non-junglers on adapting to the changes?

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Jungling just doesn't feel as satisfying as it used to. They added cool bonus buffs when you smite monsters, but there's no real point in them. Stunning jungle camps can be useful, poisoning them can be useful, but they just don't feel polished. Then you have the jungle items. 4 Paths, when in reality every champion has to take trailblazer or they can't jungle. (except for a few) They have a lot of good ideas going, but I think the jungle needs to be tuned down, champions need to be buffed, or the base jungle items need to be buffed before this really takes off.

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Tips

 

For the vast majority of Junglers, starting Gromp or Krugs (based on how often you auto attack and how hard it hits) is highly suggested. The DoT or Stun makes your first clear far, far more viable.

 

On many Junglers, the best all-rounded first clear is Gromp(smite)->Blue->Red(smite)->Gank/clear camps to 725 gold. This gets you both buffs quickly, the most possible health having gotten those buffs, and a good position to read the game and make decisions. Other clears are situationally important, but that's the new standard for most junglers IMO. 

 

Krugs(smite)->Red->Blue->(smite something else) is a possible clear but is typically worse for everyone not Yi/Lee Sin level of AA focused.

 

Your enchantment can wait until you buy something core unless it is Devourer- in which case Warwick is it your new core item. :P

 

Utility-focused masteries are less useful with how dangerous the jungle is these days. A Tank focus (except for AA-focused guys) is probably a better investment.

 

Discussion

 

I don't know Bob. I understand the thoughts, but I don't feel the same pressure to play king circlegank mclanestomp every. single. game. I don't feel like I am consigning my team to twenty minutes of a living hell when I don't pick the Assassin Fighter of the Week to jungle. Personally I prefer a more difficult/dangerous jungle- I think the primary issue is it needs to be more rewarding. If they made it a tad harder in the jungle, gave the jungle items a love tap buff, and moderately increased rewards, I think jungling would be in a great spot. Anything to push assassins further into risky play and farther from must-take is good IMO. Tanks should be the reliable pick- less impactful, less likely to be worried about their gank rate.

 

The key component of making the jungle healthy (I think) is making a sliding scale from massive tanks with poor gank potential (like Nautilus/Sejuani) implacable rocks of moderate safe jungling into a good midgame, down to super farmers that are fairly reliable on earning gear but less impactful in lane and disrupt-able by counter jungling, to Fizz/Khazix style super gankers who have an appropriately rough time in the unfriendly jungle.

Edited by MadCast: VoShay

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For the vast majority of Junglers, starting Gromp or Krugs (based on how often you auto attack and how hard it hits) is highly suggested. The DoT or Stun makes your first clear far, far more viable.

 

On many Junglers, the best all-rounded first clear is Gromp(smite)->Blue->Red(smite)->Gank/clear camps to 725 gold. This gets you both buffs quickly, the most possible health having gotten those buffs, and a good position to read the game and make decisions. Other clears are situationally important, but that's the new standard for most junglers IMO. 

 

Krugs(smite)->Red->Blue->(smite something else) is a possible clear but is typically worse for everyone not Yi/Lee Sin level of AA focused.

 

Your enchantment can wait until you buy something core unless it is Devourer- in which case Warwick is it your new core item. :P

 

Utility-focused masteries are less useful with how dangerous the jungle is these days. A Tank focus (except for AA-focused guys) is probably a better investment.

I find I can't even do both buffs on the first clear, usually I skip one, or sometimes even both of them. You have to b almost immediately after, and the buffs give crap for gold and exp now, I usually do gromp, blue, raptors then B grab trailblazer and some potions then try again.

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I literally never have that issue. I've done Udyr to Sejuani to Amumu to Maokai to, hell, Singed once. I think I did a Khazix or two as well, but I tend to shy away from assassin mcfighter mcassassin guy with mobility, dps, and infinite gank potential. Maybe you haven't adjusted your masteries/runes to the direct nerf to that style/champion pool?

Edited by MadCast: VoShay

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I literally never have that issue. I've done Udyr to Sejuani to Amumu to Maokai to, hell, Singed once. I think I did a Khazix or two as well, but I tend to shy away from assassin mcfighter mcassassin guy with mobility, dps, and infinite gank potential. Maybe you haven't adjusted your masteries/runes to the direct nerf to that style/champion pool?

Adjust them how, Already have armor, and use 21 defense most of the time, unless im playing khazix, but I find there's very little point to taking both of your buffs if they aren't going to level you up, give you as much gold, and if you're going to have to b and waste the entire cooldown anyway.

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Just did Leona Jungle, AD/Armor/CDR/AD Runes with 9/21/0 masteries, had to back after Red because the leash was decent but not great, then went to gank and was (very) successful. I've just not had the same experience bob :-/

 

 

Our leash was FANTASTIC. Any fault lies with you. 

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For me, it hasn't affected my J4 jungle much at all. The starting path changed, and obviously the jungle items are different, I just go Gromp (smite, hits level 2) -> Blue -> Wolves (hits level 3) -> Raptors (using smite), recall for Trailblazer and 5 potions, take red, then see if I want to keep farming at golems (level 4), look for a gank, etc. Warrior is the enhancement of choice, since you don't get much out of attack speed on Jarvan to make Devourer worth it, and it's hard to justify Juggernaut when you can get high damage potential out of Warrior, and you will build tanky afterwards anyways. Still running 21/9, although I'm now running 2 armor quints, 1 AD quint, AD marks, HP/level seals, and MR glyphs.

 

Razor Sharp (smiting Raptors) is the most useful buff you can get out of your jungle in the early/midgame, since it will tell you if a ward has spotted you. This means you waste less time on failed ganks. It also activates for pink wards. I try to avoid smiting my own Wolves, unless I'm planning to recall immediately after. I also try to avoid Smiting either Gromp or Golems, depending on if I'm an attack speed oriented jungler (avoid smiting Gromp) or not (avoid smiting Golems).

 

The 'safe' route (when afraid of losing buffs) in the jungle is usually either Gromp -> Blue -> Red, or Golems -> Red -> Blue, followed by a recall to pick up the Machete upgrade. In both cases you smite the small camp. In general, for attack speed oriented junglers, Golems are better since the stun on hit is useful, but for tanky/ability oriented junglers, Gromp is better with the poison buff.

 

The choice of Smite items comes down to 2: Stalker's Blade, which offers a slow and the ability to smite enemy champions for greatly reduced damage, or Ranger's Trailblazer, which deals AoE damage to nearby minions and monsters, stunning them, while restoring some of your health and mana. Stalker's Blade is powerful on the fast clearing junglers who could use a little more help ganking, such as Rengar, Nocturne, Shaco, etc. Trailblazer is better on champions who tend to have slower clears, such as J4, Sejuani, Vi, etc. Skirmisher's Saber could be renamed to Warwick's Smite, since it's only really effective on Warwick, who gets a ton of free attacks in during his ultimate. Poacher's Knife just doesn't offer enough, you have to be spending more time in your opponent's jungle than your own for it to be better than Trailblazer. Enhancement varies by champion, and is usually fairly obvious. Autoattack champions like Nocturne want Devourer, AD caster champions like Pantheon want Warrior, AP champions want Magus, tanky champions want Juggernaut.

 

I'm not entirely sure if the new jungle really added diversity, but it did shake things up. The difficulty increase has meant that ranged junglers are fairly decent at clearing, but most of them open a weakness in team composition. UOL's jungle TF showed how a ranged champion could do good work in the new jungle. AD Malzahar is as hilarious and cheesy as ever, still capable of the level 3 solo dragon. It does seem like there are more tier 2/3 junglers, but the pool of top tier junglers hasn't really changed in number.

 

The movement patterns to me feel very similar to the old jungle, although securing dragons is no longer as easy as removing 1-2 players from the fight, and doing the dragon at low health, trading off aggro. That said, the reward is greater. The slightly longer camp respawns means that powerfarming the jungle is no longer really an option, since the jungle tends to run out. The crabs I like a lot, 90 seconds of uninterrupted vision, and a 90 second downtime means that you want to take them before a fight over an objective happens, leading to a little bit more planning from teams to secure objectives.

 

The 1st and 3rd dragons are the most important (obviously the 5th is the most important if you can get there, but most games end before it). Baron Buff now makes the melee minions pretty incredibly tanky, and makes the siege minion have a small splash on attack, and outrange the turret. The 5th dragon feels like the old Baron buff of 'they have Baron, let's avoid any fights until it wears off.'

 

As for the complaint that every jungler had to build Trailblazer, just about every jungler pre-patch had to build Spirit Stone. The few that built Madreds tends to be the ones that now can get the Skirmisher's Saber anyways.

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Except Fiddles, who still favours Dorans Ring.

 

I feel for myself when I have jungled, the leash is super important. If you don't get a good leash, or any leash. You are hurt really bad in the jungle. It is not forgiving if you do not know what you are doing.

 

New Jungle also means that those champs whom are more lane bullies, and less gank enablers, like Jinx, are a lot stronger again, since more effort is needed in ganks.

 

I still ban Lee Sin.

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With the new jungle, remember that if you are to smite a camp early, to smite it when you start it, not when you finish. Now...

 

When going jungle, think of your sustain. Does the champion have any stuns/knock-ups? Early lifesteal? Shields? If yes, then your champion is safe to take whichever route they want, unless you're mana hungry then start Gromp -> blue. People like Pantheon, Fiddle, Nunu, Sion, Vi, and many more. If they fit into this category, it really is a "your choice" based on where you want to gank first and if you would rather just hard farm the jungle. 

 

If no, then does your champion have good AoE damage? (Nocturne's passive counts even though it isn't too often that it happens) If yes, then your champion is best to take down Gromp -> blue -> wolf -> red, using smite on gromp then red for hp. When you first back, the camp you should go to first is raptors, using your AoE for the mini birds, and smiting for that sweet ward detector.

 

If no, are you a single target champion, that uses plenty of auto attacks? Then start with the double krugs (smite) -> wolf/raptor (depending on whichever you're more comfortable with) -> red (smite red for hp) Only reason i suggest to not grab the buff second is so that you can get the hp from it and either farm a little longer or gank with more hp.

 

As for the jungle item you want. I would say that depends on the enchantment you will get with it. If you are getting Devourer, grab ranger's trailblazer, it makes farming the jungle and getting the stacks that much faster. If you are a champion that is a heavy ganker and needs to get that initial cc on an enemy, grab Stalker's Blade, it helps land that cc and catch up to the enemy if needed, while dealing some damage. The only champion that is special where they would get Stalker's Blade and devourer would be Nocturne. Skrimisher's Sabre is only good, imo, on Master Yi and Warwick. Poacher's Knife is only for those like Nunu who are hard counter-junglers.

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I'm going to drop a few things in here real quick since there's been a new update.

 

SWITCHING MACHETE'S

 

It's true, and it's magical. It also means that for 99% of junglers, when you back first, you're going to want to get ranger's trailblazer, and you're going to want to ditch it for skirmishers sabre or stalker's trailblazer 99% of times. The only use of trailblazer late game is clearing minions with a 1k damage aoe smite which is kind of useful but since it's not a big aoe, not that useful. Poacher is only useful on nunu and even then I'd swap it out late game.

 

It's entirely viable to NOT upgrade your machete on some junglers. Nunu comes to mind. Keep poachers unupgraded, build other stuff, terrorize their jungler, then swap it out to stalkers late game with juggernaut and have even more slows. This however, does not apply in the least if you're planning to get devorour. You want to get that as soon as possible. Don't even get shoes before you finish it.

 

Now, the biggest choice here is between the two most viable machetes. Stalker's and Skirmisher's. What are the differences?

 

Stalker's is a 20% movement speed steal. This is great when ganking. You slow them down and you get to them a half second sooner. This is also great in teamfights for making picks by helping your engage and keeping their carry from getting to safety sooner, OR for peeling for your carry. You can then use the movement speed from peeling to either dive yourself or stay on the diver. This my personal preference, but skirmisher's is great too.

 

Skirmisher's is for duelists or tanks. It is no longer reliant on attack speed which means that, like ignite, it's a flat true damage dot. And it's actually pretty god damn great at that. If you only hit them once, at level 18, it does 162 damage over 3 seconds. If you hit them all throughout the 6 second active, thus refreshing the dot and keeping it on them for 9 seconds, it does 486 true damage. To compare, ignite does 410 over 5 seconds. The damage is really not to be underestimated.

 

Furthermore it applies a mini exhaust, where the target does reduced damage to you, making this retardedly good for dueling, OR for diving. Imagine this on a tank, where you dive and simultaneously cast this on their biggest damage threat to keep them from being able to burst you down as you CC them for the rest of your health bar? I've used it several times to great effect on Sej against a Vayne.

 

Those are the two big choices. But either way, unless you're planning to gank or invade immediately after buying the machete upgrade, Trailblazer is just the best. It clears fast, and it keeps your health up so you can gank safer. 

 

Now on to other tips.

 

As said, Jungle path is SUPER important this season. You want to know where you'll be using your smite. Smiting your wolves is not useful early game unless you're against Shaco or Nunu in which case it's freaking fantastic to know if they're invading. Gromp does damage to champions too, meaning it's great to smite as a tank before a teamfight, dealing 148 damage over 3 seconds to whatever attacks you (almost 50 dps). It's not huge but it's more than sunfire cape, and it has technically infinite range. Chickens are by far the most useful buff for ganking. Knowing when a ward spots you and getting 10 seconds of true sight to clear it is ridiculous for both saving time and making extra money. Golems is hands down the best buff for clearing healthily. Stunning every 6th hit keeps your HP up higher than you'd think. Plan your path based around your smite cooldown. 

 

Now that you have two smites, do your best to always have one ready if you think there's going to be a dragon/baron fight, or to assist in a gank/close call with stalker's huge ranged slow. While this means you'll feel the 15 second cooldown increase of smite even harder, it also means you'll gain a massive amount of safety and utility. 

 

If anyone wants I can give more champion specifics tips and stuff, but this is some pretty general stuff that should help everyone. 

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Just want to point out, Stalker's Blade is going to almost always be better than any alternative. Trailblazer is reasonable before you upgrade, but the slow from Stalker's is incredibly powerful. Just about every single jungle wants to stick to a target, and Stalkers is good at that. Skirmisher's Saber is okay, but is generally worse than Trailblazer or Stalkers. If you can hit someone who cares about getting hit for 9 seconds straight, they are doing something wrong. Most duelists aren't lacking in damage, they are more often lacking in sticking power.

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