MadCast: rife170

League of Learning Feedback

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ITs a great tool to watch other people and actually having a good commentary to go with it. I agree that Epic is very good at communication. I personally, have learned a lot and also, on my downtime at work and whatnot watch countless videos on the role I would like to main (support) and listening to the top tier players and their decision making and also creating my own playstyle along the way. It has helped me tremendously and op.gg is also a good tool as well to see builds and strats of other top tier players.

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I really enjoyed League of Learning on 12-14-17 and I got a lot out of it. The first game was extremely close until my team out scaled the enemy.

However, in the second game, it felt like one team had A LOT of vision and was able to make macro plays whereas the other team was blind the entire game. It felt like league of learning is best when the games are close.

 

 

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Greetings everyone.  I figure'd I'd throw my thoughts into the mix as I've now been part of a few of these and can give a newcommer's perspective on the subject.

First I'd like to list a few things I really like about the event.  Its a low pressure environment which makes for a very receptive player base when it comes to feedback on their performance.  Its great when you can actually talk to your lane opponent after the game and say "I really hated the matchup because you could poke me out way too easy" and they can give you advice as to maybe counter picks or windows of opportunity and positioning to maybe help with laning.  More over I REALLY love the amount of communication I actually hear in comms while playing.  People are constantly saying "X Mia" or "careful in X lane" or "jungler was just in X position".  This give people a lot of information (sometimes too much to deal with) on whats going on and as we all know information wins games.  Another thing that people are great about is being accommodating when it comes to roles during the events.  This tends to lead to some lengthy shuffling around but it tends to work out in the end (not always but most of the time).

There are a few things I think that are lacking though in the events.  One of which is a bit more focus on the learning aspect. To this I mean we tend to pick 1 subject and go with that for the games.  Its usually something that is critical for people to have the skill of but it seems to be a bit too broad.  Example - Warding.  Its something simple and EVERYONE should do it.  Its easy to forget and hard to get control of but when you get it down it wins games.  This is a crucial skill to have no matter what role you are playing but I don't really see it as something that should be the ONLY focus for an event.  I'd like to see more than 1 focus during an event especially when something like vision is the topic because vision is less important at different stages of the game.  Example - late game with support having 6 items, its 55 minutes in and you are pushing to break into the base.  Yes vision is important because of flank plays but it becomes less important when you are in a strong position and you are trying to break open the base while in control of the map.  The argument can be that vision is what led you to that position and its no reason to let it lapse but you might not be able to back to refill wards or have room for pinks or just made a pick after taking dragon or baron and want to press the advantage.  Or you could have just been sieging that long that wards have timed out and you are finally making headway.  All these things are variables that should be taken into effect when making a play and those are the in depth decision making skills that we tend to breeze past when playing the events.  I do think that you guys do great overall in choosing the topics for the league of learning events I just think or would like to see more than 1 thing focused on for any given event simply because that topic wont ALWAYS be your highest priority.

Something I'd like to see for possible topics for the event might include -

Itemization + understanding lane matchup

Lane priority and how to tell who has it + objective control

Roaming and when to do it + vision control + Invading

 

i think it would be fun if we could get people interested in the idea but Shoutcasting the event for the fun of it.

I also think it would be awesome to actually watch the replays with the other group (G- views G+ and vise versa)

 

Overall I really enjoy the event and I've talked to a few of the other players that participate and they all have great things to say about it and plan to keep participating.  So great job guys!  and thanks for putting on the events.

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1 hour ago, Support Welfare said:

First I'd like to list a few things I really like about the event.  Its a low pressure environment which makes for a very receptive player base when it comes to feedback on their performance.  Its great when you can actually talk to your lane opponent after the game and say "I really hated the matchup because you could poke me out way too easy" and they can give you advice as to maybe counter picks or windows of opportunity and positioning to maybe help with laning.  More over I REALLY love the amount of communication I actually hear in comms while playing.  People are constantly saying "X Mia" or "careful in X lane" or "jungler was just in X position".  This give people a lot of information (sometimes too much to deal with) on whats going on and as we all know information wins games.  Another thing that people are great about is being accommodating when it comes to roles during the events.  This tends to lead to some lengthy shuffling around but it tends to work out in the end (not always but most of the time).

Thanks for leading with identifiers on what we're doing well, such as culture and communication. Your last point there is also a necessary evil, because we want people to not be forced into positions where they slog it out for a whole game.

1 hour ago, Support Welfare said:

I do think that you guys do great overall in choosing the topics for the league of learning events I just think or would like to see more than 1 thing focused on for any given event simply because that topic wont ALWAYS be your highest priority.

I understand this and the above points. There are a number of issues that revolve around what you - the player - want to attain during one event. Every player comes for something else, be it bettering themselves at an advanced rate, or learning something new and having fun. The single topic and the broad nature go hand in hand so that whoever attends can get the most out of the experience. This is partly why we do it the way we do.

On the topic of future topics and change: we can pick up what you're putting down. We'll try and adopt a couple of those ideas for the future, and see if they practice well.

1 hour ago, Support Welfare said:

i think it would be fun if we could get people interested in the idea but Shoutcasting the event for the fun of it.

I also think it would be awesome to actually watch the replays with the other group (G- views G+ and vise versa)

The shoutcasting will come in time, for those members that want to dedicate that sort of personal investment.

Replay viewing was a thing in the past, but we found it to be very time consuming in the small frame that we have. Maybe it will make a resurgence!

1 hour ago, Support Welfare said:

Overall I really enjoy the event and I've talked to a few of the other players that participate and they all have great things to say about it and plan to keep participating.  So great job guys!  and thanks for putting on the events.

We run it for you guys, so thank you for the feedback. Makes the event all the better!

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I have something that I would like to add. Kyroo and I were opposing supports in one of our games and he messaged me about my ward placement. We went back and forth a little about what we each prefer in our rune pages. I really enjoyed that conversation because he noticed something I did and talked to me about it the next day. I feel like you get out of League of Learning what we as a community put into it. Kyroo didn't have to message me about my rune choices but he did and I was really happy about that. 

 

Also I wouldn't mind attempting shout casting but I am not extremely knowledgeable about the game (silver 2) so I might need some help. 

Edited by Icarus Swarm
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I really do appreciate the fact that you guys put these events on and I really enjoy playing in them.  Lots of fun people around, tuns of fun messing around (funday Monday), and lots of useful feedback at the end of games.  Plus you make many new friends to play with later.  As for the off role part I might gripe about it when it happens to me but I do think its a good thing.  I'd rather be put in an off role in a game where the players are in comms and can actually help out and you can talk to the enemy team about what you can do better so like I said I might complain about it but I do like it from time to time and agree that its a necessary evil.  As far as my opinion goes I throw out my perspective on things to give you guys an idea of what I see.  I am glad that you are taking the time and making the effort to make these events and are always looking for ways to improve on them.  I'm a big advocate of "never too much information" so I will always try to give you my thoughts where I feel they are relevant.  To that note I appreciate that you take the time to hear me out on them.  So thank you for that.  I have a lot of fun with the people around here and want to help where I can.

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5 hours ago, wF- said:

The first one I came to it was G5 or above in the higher ELO game and for sure I learned more from the single match there and the followup unrelated matches with @MadCast: Epic@MadCast: Hawthorn and @MadCast: kyro then I have from the lower ELO matches, it came down to understanding that while I thought I was good I wasn't actually because I egotistically thought I knew how to play champions, I know how their skills work but don't know how to use the champion's kit effectively when minorly ahead or any level of being behind. It made me realize I need to go back to playing simpler mechanical champions (Annie, etc) in order to pay attention more to the parts I'm missing. I also realized my aggressiveness is often either going to put me way ahead or cause me to crash and burn so playing more passively has allowed me to win more games than before

It is true that those not used to playing at the level of the upper players of home G+ group learn more from their one time playing. But there is a reason as to why we only allow that so often. I am going to elaborate below. 

5 hours ago, wF- said:

Shotcalling, and follow up examples.

Working with folks at your level and learning to communicate is a necessary skill needed. Opinions and stats may lean objectively as your example suggested, but the point is that you are critically thinking and working constructively. Designates can be worked with, or you can work as a team to find what the right call is. When you make a wrong call, part of your growth as an individual player is to recognize that and grow. Eventually getting to the point when you aren’t making poor judgments, or you’re at least learning from past ones. 

I also trust that your emphasis on the criticism given in the G+ match is that the criticism actually happened, rather than the tone or inflection. It is true that there is much more to comment on when a player makes moves that are not optimal, and that is a more frequent occurrence in the upper ELO match. It becomes more frequent when a player is not used to playing at that level. 

That being said, there is a reason it’s not a common occurrence. Other than availability issues, we tend to mix the groups once a month. When players don’t play at the same level, there is an increased demand on both parties: the upper and lower. More patience, skill, time, and even more patience is required when multiple teams are playing at a different echelon. Let’s try an example of why that would be:

@MadCast: Mike could be playing his best ADC with @MadCast: kyro supporting. They could be playing against myself and @MadCast: Support Welfare 

In the bot lane. If Kyro communicates that it is the opportune time to engage, and 3 seconds later he doesn’t, Mike could be slow to the draw. Maybe me and Support we’re both lucky and aware that they wanted this, and had communicated our weakness to our jungle who was in the area. Kyro engages when he said he would, flashes and executes a CC chain that would have allowed Mike to kill me with just a couple of autos. But Mike wasn’t aware that Kyro was going THAT HAM. He stood for a second or two before flashing in range, which allowed me to live a second longer, and gave Support time to keep me up. The trade ends up unfavorable for you guys, and our jungle is now here. The fiesta begins. 

That anecdote could be applied to any gank or happening wherever there is a level of play discrepancy. How it ends, is with Mike learning that he should expect to trust the Diamond support to follow through when he says he will, but it leaves him with a bad taste because he died for his indecision. Now, maybe someone like yourself can handle that for a couple games, and they get better. It shows, and maybe the same stuff doesn’t keep happening. Not everyone may be as diligent, or well mannered as yourself either. Maybe they don’t want to get creamed for more than two games versus that insane D2 Teemo main. Because the amount of knowledge you are gaining from that does not outweigh that feeling that you spent the last two hours getting creamed, and now you have to get ready for work before bed. 

This is not what I want for those of you that are attending our LoL. I want you to enjoy your time AND walk away better. However slight that may be. With this system, we make concessions for enjoyment and sacrifice a bit of learning. 

 

That monologue said I like the idea of having a sit-in vet for the G- group for a session of every month or so. I’ll work on that.

Edited by MadCast: Epic
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Just want to preface that I really enjoy the LoL events as a whole. I think they are a great way to not only meet more individuals from the community, find out what they like to play, how they play, etc, but also can really be a good tool to get feedback from other people on what they think they can do to improve.

Personally, I was not a fan of the structure of last nights LoL. It was an interesting concept and got a little hectic because of 30+ people showing up, but at the same time it led to some hurt feelings and less than interesting games. I can't speak for the other groups because I didn't play in them but in our group we had some people who were still new to the game (below level 30) playing with plats and diamonds as well as some lower ranks. While I'm all for people learning the game and would love to see more new guys in the community, I think in this setting that having those large gaps in experience tends to lead to a lot of frustration for the new guys as well as for the high ranked players.  For instance, I'm a plat jungler and I would feel like a real jerk if I just kept abusing a new player, so my options are to be a jerk and try my best to win the game, or ignore them and not push our teams advantage to get the gold for killing them, or their tower, etc. We had a new guy to the community in our group who became extremely upset after our first game and refused to stick around for the second game because of this and I think others may have felt that same frustration but chose to stick around.

I know that this is not the usual setting for the LoL event, but if it is how we choose to run it like the last week of the month or however I predict we will see a massive decline in attendance for that particular week. Personally, I wouldn't want to come to an event either if I knew I was just going to get really frustrated. It takes away from the fun and the learning environment.

Again, this is just my opinion on the matter. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way on the matter. Take it for what it is worth.

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@MadCast: TheMaesen I'm going to chime in here - Last night was the first night that I ran a LoL event, and it definitely was a little hectic. Overall I enjoyed the experience of running the event and playing with everyone despite the hiccups before we started. I believe that both groups were waiting 30+ minutes to start games between peoples computer [or user] errors and the in-game client bugs, so that was a ding right off the bat. 

37 minutes ago, MadCast: TheMaesen said:

Personally, I was not a fan of the structure of last nights LoL. It was an interesting concept and got a little hectic because of 30+ people showing up, but at the same time it led to some hurt feelings and less than interesting games. I can't speak for the other groups because I didn't play in them but in our group we had some people who were still new to the game (below level 30) playing with plats and diamonds as well as some lower ranks. While I'm all for people learning the game and would love to see more new guys in the community, I think in this setting that having those large gaps in experience tends to lead to a lot of frustration for the new guys as well as for the high ranked players.  For instance, I'm a plat jungler and I would feel like a real jerk if I just kept abusing a new player, so my options are to be a jerk and try my best to win the game, or ignore them and not push our teams advantage to get the gold for killing them, or their tower, etc. We had a new guy to the community in our group who became extremely upset after our first game and refused to stick around for the second game because of this and I think others may have felt that same frustration but chose to stick around.

I hear you man. Whenever I play vs people who are really under where I am it isn't as exciting. Regular games are like that too, and I think that people who are competitive in nature especially enjoy being challenged. I like stretching myself to the limit and seeing what I can accomplish. That being said, I don't think it's a terrible idea, assuming that people are interested in playing vs just *whoever* once a week at the end of the month. If the majority of people want that kind of thing, I think it's important as a community to give ourselves more than just one time to test something out to see if it works or not.  I didn't get to hear a lot of feedback about how people felt about the mixed Elo matches outside of my own group. I know that John was a new player and didn't really have a very fun time, but Emma at least seemed to be enjoying herself. 

 

48 minutes ago, MadCast: TheMaesen said:

I predict we will see a massive decline in attendance for that particular week.

I certainly hope not, and obviously I cannot speak for other people, so I feel it would be beneficial if more people chimed in here about their experiences with yesterdays mixed elo event. Did you hate it, love it? Would you prefer to play against people more around your skill level at every LoL event? 

 There was never any posting about wanting the Elos mixed, so I think that starting a poll in the LOL thread might be good to get a better overall for those who are against it or for it. 

 

http://www.strawpoll.me/14935067 

 

This is the poll that I made [with @MadCast: Epic's approval]. It will remain open for 1 week before closing. I also posted in LOL Forum so that more people could see it. 

 

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22 minutes ago, MadCast: Hawthorn said:

so I think that starting a poll in the LOL thread might be good to get a better overall for those who are against it or for it. 

I voted yes. Although I didn't get to play, I was still really excited to play against some higher tier players! If my game would have worked, I would have been against Epic, and I was really excited to hopefully learn something from his playstyle! I think people need to just open their minds and actually try to learn some things from the higher elo players on their team. And as for the higher tier players, try to give some more feedback to your lower tier players, and help them win their lane! If you're going to get upset that a Diamond player beats you in lane when you're bronze, I think you're more worried about just winning than actually learning something. The event is called "League of Learning"!

Edited by Biscuit

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My vote would be yes. From my experience last night, I can say that I had a great time, besides having some technical issues with League. I was definitely a little nervous to be playing with higher skilled players, but I feel like it was a good way to learn how they play and try to put what I saw into my own games. I played botlane as support with Epic as adc, and I believe I learned a lot of new things. He made a lot of calls and had great communication overall, which helped the rest of the team communicate better. I got help with understanding certain tactics and why we would use them, giving me an overall better mindset about the game. My team did end up winning the game, so I'm not sure if that would add some bias or not, but I still would have enjoyed it none the less if we loss due to the fact I was able to learn some new things that I wouldn't have if I hadn't played with higher tier players. Overall, I think continuing thing would be beneficial!

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I personally enjoy the mixing of elos; I will say that the overall diversity of the group I was with was probably a little closer than the other 2 groups.  That said I always enjoy playing with people in a higher MMR because upper ELO players really do see the game differently than I do and I want to learn and improve.  I think the structure we have currently have does what it's intended to which is to introduce a topic of focus for three weeks to improve on it before mixing the skill set.  

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I don't really have a preference either way, I can't say I enjoyed the major technical difficulties we had yesterday (which had nothing to do with mixing of ELOs), but once we got going, the games were of fairly good quality. 

On one hand, we have had some very tight games when you get a lot of plat+ players in the same game, because no lane spirals wildly out of control and the game turns into who can play the macro game better, who has the better scaling, who can eke out the small advantages that win the game, etc. On the other hand, I think that the G- group will often be lacking someone who has strong knowledge of what could have been improved. in my opinion, mixing the ELOs will provide more learning, but less fun overall.

 

On another note, some general feedback about our postgame reviews:

This is a little late now, but I feel like when the focus is on communication, we might want to focus a little less on 'what happened in each lane,' which is teaching laning skill (which has been a focus previously, I believe), and more into 'how did we communicate in the early mid and late.' Some focuses for each stage, for example:

Early - How was the communication about where the jungler on either team was? Did the jungler communicate where he would like to gank, or did the laners communicate which lanes were easy to gank? Is the ADC and support communicating for things like relic shield, trades/power spikes? Are ward locations well communicated?

Mid - How did the communication go as to which objectives to press for and which to defend, where everyone should be to properly defend, who is getting sidelane farm, split pushing/gaining vision safely, rotations, etc.

Late - How well are you communicating targets in teamfights, rotations, what to take after won teamfights, playing around Elder/Baron?

Overall, I feel like League of Learning still focuses heavily on just playing the game/playing the lane, rather than the theoretical 'focus' of the month, but I haven't been playing in the League of Learning too much yet.

 

A few possible topics:

-Playing around/establishing vision: This is one of Epic's pet peeves, when someone gets caught out because they were moving into fog when there was a safer route available, or when people chase too far into fog. Establishing vision control and removing the opponents, buying pink wards for important locations/objectives.

-Drafting: Picking a solid team composition, the basics (bring AP and AD!) and more themed compositions (teamfight, poke, pick, etc). Lane matchups, synergy picks, etc.

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I voted no. There is nothing wrong with playing with players who are better then you but we also have some players who are still very new and to get dumpstered by a diamond player or plat or whatever might not be that beneficial for the player. I honestly came in slightly irritated because i had homework to do but since we were @29 people i wasn't gonna be the guy who screwed over 9 other people. I however was able to sub out of the 2nd game so it worked out but Lobby 3 games were steamrolls and whoever had kyroo basically had a win so maybe it was a balance issue

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8 hours ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

This is a little late now, but I feel like when the focus is on communication, we might want to focus a little less on 'what happened in each lane,' which is teaching laning skill (which has been a focus previously, I believe), and more into 'how did we communicate in the early mid and late.'

I definitely agree that is something we should incorporate more into the events. In my group, at least [I can't speak for what was said in other groups] I tried to touch a little bit on shot-calling and encompass the other things that we had talked about previously in the month, but I also feel that I didn't have a lot of people that had been present for the events earlier in the month as there was a bunch of new people at LoL this Thursday, and in general just a little bit hectic. Definitely think it's something we will be trying to work more into the after-game talks though :)

 

8 hours ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

A few possible topics:

-Playing around/establishing vision: This is one of Epic's pet peeves, when someone gets caught out because they were moving into fog when there was a safer route available, or when people chase too far into fog. Establishing vision control and removing the opponents, buying pink wards for important locations/objectives.

-Drafting: Picking a solid team composition, the basics (bring AP and AD!) and more themed compositions (teamfight, poke, pick, etc). Lane matchups, synergy picks, etc.

These are pretty good ideas. We did vision last month at one point, but I still see a lot of low vision scores every time that I play LoL, so it's ALWAYS going to be a good topic to revisit. I think that @MadCast: Epichad mentioned that we are going to start our LoL events into a month long session of topics that go together, with the last week of the month being a basic review of all the stuff we have gone over. 

A lot of people in my group expressed heavy interest in learning wave manipulation and minion control, wanting to know how to freeze a wave, or when is a good time to freeze vs push, and general CS information. I think that would be a good topic to touch on as well.  

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9 minutes ago, MadCast: Hawthorn said:

These are pretty good ideas. We did vision last month at one point, but I still see a lot of low vision scores every time that I play LoL, so it's ALWAYS going to be a good topic to revisit. I think that @MadCast: Epichad mentioned that we are going to start our LoL events into a month long session of topics that go together, with the last week of the month being a basic review of all the stuff we have gone over. 

This correct, we will be moving forward towards month long topics with variation in specifics.

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I wasn't able to make it to the mixed ELO event, but in the past I have seen its drawbacks in the actual playing of the game. That said, the advantages of having someone who is objectively better than you providing the feedback can be huge. Many of our higher ELO players have some very deep champ pools (looking at you @MadCast: Soupcup) so there is a decent chance that they can provide you with champ specific tips from a higher level of play than you're used to.

As far as abusing advantages in skill and experience, to a certain extent it falls to the higher players discretion as to whether or not they abuse the summoner level 12 ashe top laner mercilessly or provide instant feedback. In the past I coached players and one of the things I would do is almost kill them then back off, explaining what they did or I did that led to that outcome. All competitiveness aside, it is League of LEARNING, not League of Break Your Enemy's Spirit. If you're matched against someone that you're better than, odds are you both know it. Don't abuse them without explaining what they can do better

Edited by MadCast: Baal

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I am learning Mid lane and really need some feedbacks on macros. I realize this is for advanced players but if you got someone who understand maco would be great. 

 

Lane management also. How to freeze a lane. How not to kill specific minions to have wave slow push..etc. Please!

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one of my favorite slow push setups has always been to kill 1-2 casters and leave the rest of the wave. If it isn't answered, it gets huge by the time it makes it from one end of a lane to the other. something like 4 1/2-5 full waves worth crashing at once.

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I honestly would like to learn more minion management. I think the drafting could be a potential 1 or 2 week topic but I don't see it being a month long topic.

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League of Learning last night (2/1/18) was a lot of fun, but also became a bit stressful. I was excited to learn more about minion management as I am not the best at knowing when to push or freeze lanes. Biscuit and I ended up volunteering to be a part of the higher elo game as they needed 2 more players, and I felt like I would learn a lot more since they have a better perspective on the game. I was having fun but I feel like the game started to be taken a little too seriously, which seemed to make some people a bit stressed. At the end of the games I did learn a lot, like different items I should have built, etc. But I feel like there wasn't as much focus on wave management as I would have liked. Everything else was a blast and I feel like I came out of the games more educated, but I feel like for the next League of Learning we should focus maybe just a little bit more on wave management :)

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Really good analysis of a bottom lane matchup and minion management in the bottom lane. Really good info on our current topic.

One interesting idea would be to /pause after the game starts, and then bring all 10 together to discuss lanes in-depth, who has the favorable/unfavorable trades, where each side wants the wave, etc.

Edited by MadCast: Pushover

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