MadCast: rife170

League of Learning Feedback

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I feel like tonight's game really showed that most of us need to practice our vision control, ward placement and generally map awareness. Cheers!

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If you have any feedback from our League of Learning events please share your thoughts with us!  We strive to continually improve this event and if you have a suggestion to make it better please come forth and present it. 

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I find that as I play these Thursday events more and more, the sessions seem to hinder on when to roam and the constant vision that we are able to exploit on the map. If possible I was wondering if we could revisit that topic going forward into the month of March. For vision, where to ward and why, as for roaming, when to roam and when not to as well as why it's better to take a tower or leave it standing in relation to roaming.

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12 hours ago, MadCast: Gokudera said:

I find that as I play these Thursday events more and more, the sessions seem to hinder on when to roam and the constant vision that we are able to exploit on the map. If possible I was wondering if we could revisit that topic going forward into the month of March. For vision, where to ward and why, as for roaming, when to roam and when not to as well as why it's better to take a tower or leave it standing in relation to roaming.

Good thoughts Gokudera. 

I know that last night, that was nothing that was very prevalent in both games.  

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Enjoyed the focus on roaming. Have we talked about when to make macro plays and how to setup for them ahead of time? Anyone can ping that Dragon is 1 minute, but what does that mean? What should you be doing? If you have a TP advantage with your top, do you send them to push out waves 1:30 ahead of the dragon spawn? If you don't have the advantage, how do you defend a push?

I guess I'd be interested in a focus on how macro decisions can impact gameplay.

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Very in depth information on game play and provided constructive feedback.  I was never offended by any of the information provided and in the end the idea is to help everyone get better and grow.  As long as the environment fosters this, I have no complaints.

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On 4/6/2018 at 11:05 AM, Chick Fil Atio said:

Enjoyed the focus on roaming. Have we talked about when to make macro plays and how to setup for them ahead of time? Anyone can ping that Dragon is 1 minute, but what does that mean? What should you be doing? If you have a TP advantage with your top, do you send them to push out waves 1:30 ahead of the dragon spawn? If you don't have the advantage, how do you defend a push?

I guess I'd be interested in a focus on how macro decisions can impact gameplay.

As a top laner I would love to focus on this. I think optimizing TP usage can be difficult (as the benefits are not always obvious and/or immediate) and think that learning when to use TP and how to punish its (mis)use could be beneficial for all of us.

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So an idea (this one of mainly to help newer players):
- Each team has a jungler that is among the lowest elo or newest player to league (that is willing).
- For both teams, the jungler is the SOLE shotcaller.
- Other players will go to their lanes and farm and other lane activities (pvp too), and do NOTHING else.
- When the junglers make a shotcall, anybody involved in the call will immediately follow the call.

Basically this gives some newer players a chance to have total control over the game state. Ganks, lane swaps, lane pressure, objective control. It also makes it so they can actually learn without worrying about a much more seasoned player outplaying them at every turn. This is also based on the idea that when you have a decent shot caller - if every call is followed to the point, your chances of winning are pretty good. Heck there was even a pro team that got pretty far purely for always going in when a call was made (to my understanding, they were not that good).

I am unsure if this would work for the higher elo groups, but based on conversations I often hear in post games - usually around the lines of "people were not following calls" or "too many people were making calls" and "not sure what the right call is" - I think it could be an interesting experiment.

 

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I disagree that shot calling is a role taken by one person. I think it depends on team chemistry and knowing WHEN to contribute. For example I don't want to get permission from a shot caller if I see an instantaneous fight that needs to be taken because then it'll be too late. The fact is jungle has the responsibility to make plays happen early because they are the pressure. A jungler shot calls just by being at a location on the map. In my opinion, it is easier for the jungler to shot call early plays by announcing their presence.

Let's say the jungler ganks top, 3 thing happen: 1) Pressure is added top, 2) Pressure is lost bot, 3) Future pressure can be predicted based on the vision. This has huge implications on the options that a team can make. Also in lower elo, people have enough crap to think about in lane so to add half-ass micromanaging a different position is absurd. Sure there's calling for a gank but the jungler has final say in that PERIOD. If they don't want to do it they aren't going to. Even in LCS, shotcalling is a roleplaying system. There have been many interviews where pros describe the coms and usually there is a primary voice but everyone is feeding into it and there are differences in the coms based on the team.

 

THAT BEING SAID, throwing the least experience person into that role is a very very bad idea.

 

Ultimately there is no point in designating a shot caller in lower elo league of learning because there is only one play, win lane and whoever gets picked less wins.

Edited by MadCast: Icarus
Formating for clarity

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If you want to improve the lower elo League of Learning it might be beneficial to get actual high elo players who know the game very well to spectate and listen on coms. Afterwards they will give a debrief of the game and coach from there. Its hard to learn shot calling when the basics aren't understood by everyone.

Edited by MadCast: Icarus

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So I think you misunderstand the purpose of the suggestion... It is not to put tons of pressure on somebody. Or to be super super duper try hard. It is an exercise.
There are SUPPOSED to be mistakes. There are SUPPOSED to be bad calls. There are SUPPOSED to be calls missed.
This is not dictating that you can't fight your lane opponent. It means you can not rotate to kill that squishy adc that is split pushing without the shotcaller tasking you to it.

Also this NEEDS to be on a voluntary basis for the shotcaller.

Edited by MadCast: RacerDelux

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I don't support this specific idea but I do back your general idea. Shotcalling should be a   good emphasis and can make the difference between being stuck and ranking up. League of Learning is kind of stale at the moment in the sense of we aren't really harping on specific topics and honing in on those areas. It's basically just in houses. I would like to see one area focused on per week and really being keyed in. Just my opinion, I do like League of Learning but I do believe the specific talking points were really intriguing. Just my 2 cents. 

 

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League is a game that is too complex for 1 person to be making all the calls. You can decide on one person who has overall authority when making calls (so that when you win a teamfight and are deciding between trying to push for mid inhib or trying for baron, you have a tiebreaker), and you can have one person make most macro calls (whether to 1-3-1, 1-4, who is getting which side wave, etc), but calls need to be a team effort. Early in the game, the support will call most of the shots in the bottom lane because they have the most ability to engage. Jungle and mid (and top) need to communicate as to how to get successful ganks, where wards are, etc. It's difficult to tell a jungler to gank a lane immediately, since it will disrupt their pathing.

Strict shotcalling is really bad for that reason, no player can remember to tell everyone exactly what to do, and no one is going to truly follow the rule to not rotate and take sidelane farm when nothing is happening. Are you going to call out general strategies for each lane, such as you want mid to shove in constantly? Are you going to let a Rumble in the top lane ult the wave before recalling? What about teleporting back to lane? What about flashing after kills in the bottom lane? It's impossible to draw a line to say that the shotcaller should call certain things and you cannot do them without the shotcaller telling you. Split second decisions like deciding to stay when you know the jungler is trying to gank you because your teammate is available for a countergank, or backing off and showing to the enemy jungler that you know he is coming, are not things that you can do with strict shotcalling.

One thing that has been discussed but never done is doing replay analysis on some of the League of Learning games, I could try to do this for the lower ELO group immediately following League of Learning. I would be happy to watch a replay and give feedback on it, Could even be extended to people's ranked games, but would probably be most beneficial to do games where everyone is playing, and everyone remembers playing in. I could also do replay analysis by post, which might be better, since doing analysis can be time consuming, and you miss a lot the first time watching a replay if you are trying to look at how each player did.

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4 hours ago, MadCast: Icarus said:

THAT BEING SAID, throwing the least experience person into that role is a very very bad idea.

While bad is not the word that I would deign to use, a couple things would be realized at the end of the event. The "shot caller" would have a new appreciation for how macro decisions influence games, and would probably be too stressed to carry out the final review session. The other players would have some pent-up frustrations on not being able to act on what they thought was best, and also are not excited to have the most junior person lead their team next week.

We want you all to show up every week for this event. Yes, you come here to learn, but you have to enjoy doing it as well.  This is hosted during our members free time, and I am not inclined to introduce ideas that may lead to players burning out. I don't see this idea as something that matches its benefit to sacrifice ratio input from the players. Not yet at least.

4 hours ago, MadCast: Icarus said:

If you want to improve the lower elo League of Learning it might be beneficial to get actual high elo players who know the game very well to spectate and listen on coms. Afterwards they will give a debrief of the game and coach from there. Its hard to learn shot calling when the basics aren't understood by everyone.

This difficult due to the delay of the spectator mode of the game and one coach can only cater to five players. Everyone who shows up to this event ("coaches" included) are looking to play and enjoy themselves, and many individuals have/had expressed misgivings early on for this event about how spectating was not as fun as playing. I understand this and do not expect our event participants to subject themselves to activities they do not enjoy during their off time. I am open to discussion on this topic, as I am sure @MadCast: Aeryx is as well.

3 hours ago, MadCast: RacerDelux said:

So I think you misunderstand the purpose of the suggestion... It is not to put tons of pressure on somebody. Or to be super super duper try hard. It is an exercise.
There are SUPPOSED to be mistakes. There are SUPPOSED to be bad calls. There are SUPPOSED to be calls missed.
This is not dictating that you can't fight your lane opponent. It means you can not rotate to kill that squishy adc that is split pushing without the shotcaller tasking you to it.

Also this NEEDS to be on a voluntary basis for the shotcaller.

I appreciate the angle you are trying to work here. I also appreciate the feedback that is geared to help this event grow where we have not had a lot of feedback of recent. 

I expressed a few concerns to your points in my response to Icarus, but there are many sacrificial conditions to be met before an exercise of this measure could take place. If four players agreed to let the most junior player on their team (or whoever agreed to take the role) decide major decisions for the next game, what are the pros and cons? No matter the scenario, I just do not see this exercise ending in a way that leaves those participating a bit frustrated.

There are other avenues for approaching leadership roles in the game that do not cast spotlights and involve all player's input. The healthiest and more successful competitive teams I have been a part of often take this route; I encourage you to pursue ideas that allow everyone to be engaged while introducing the least possible frustration possible @MadCast: RacerDelux .

Edited by MadCast: Epic

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3 hours ago, MadCast: Usefully Useless said:

I don't support this specific idea but I do back your general idea. Shotcalling should be a   good emphasis and can make the difference between being stuck and ranking up. League of Learning is kind of stale at the moment in the sense of we aren't really harping on specific topics and honing in on those areas. It's basically just in houses. I would like to see one area focused on per week and really being keyed in. Just my opinion, I do like League of Learning but I do believe the specific talking points were really intriguing. Just my 2 cents. 

1

Those two cents are appreciated. There is a review after the inhouses that some players drill down to more specific feedback than others, but I concede that if you are not making use of that time that it would just be "basic inhouses".

What talking points do you want to see more of? How do you want them to implemented? What areas of your game are you looking to improve, and do you think others would benefit from the same?

This is feedback that Aeryx and I are looking to see. This is what were are looking to work into the event so we can keep it fresh. Thank you for your feedback @MadCast: Usefully Useless .

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4 hours ago, MadCast: Epic said:

This difficult due to the delay of the spectator mode of the game and one coach can only cater to five players. Everyone who shows up to this event ("coaches" included) are looking to play and enjoy themselves, and many individuals have/had expressed misgivings early on for this event about how spectating was not as fun as playing. I understand this and do not expect our event participants to subject themselves to activities they do not enjoy during their off time. I am open to discussion on this topic, as I am sure @MadCast: Aeryx is as well.

I'm always willing to spectate as needed. That said, I would rather play, but if we go that route, I don't mind watching and taking notes.

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I like the areas that we have in place to be focused on, would just like to see them put into a rotation of sorts and specifically gone over in our reviews after. I think it's easier to pinpoint mistakes when we have a smaller focus area.

As for me specifically? My shot calling on when to gank / when to not , my jungle farm rotation and keeping it in line with objective timers, which items I'm rushing in different team compositions / game type situations (far ahead , far behind, etc),  and jungle vision control.  I know there may not be an "exact" answer to my problems but they are my weaknesses for sure and would like to improve on those facets.

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14 hours ago, MadCast: Usefully Useless said:

League of Learning is kind of stale at the moment in the sense of we aren't really harping on specific topics and honing in on those areas. It's basically just in houses. I would like to see one area focused on per week and really being keyed in.

I completely agree with what UU is saying. For the longest time now we haven't done anything differently aside from that single game where we agreed to try new champs, which did not go too well because someone was on their most comfortable champion. Thursday matches have devolved to banning out the same exact champions every week and hoping that you get a decent match-up in your lane. I'm not sure if we stopped doing certain things because people didn't like it, but I remember the first few times I attended LoL it was a great place to try out new things or maybe go on an off-role. With many people already being forced into an off-role because of the odd number of junglers/mids, I think it would be good to have everyone try out something new.

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3 hours ago, MadCast: Lokenn said:

I completely agree with what UU is saying. For the longest time now we haven't done anything differently aside from that single game where we agreed to try new champs, which did not go too well because someone was on their most comfortable champion. Thursday matches have devolved to banning out the same exact champions every week and hoping that you get a decent match-up in your lane. I'm not sure if we stopped doing certain things because people didn't like it, but I remember the first few times I attended LoL it was a great place to try out new things or maybe go on an off-role. With many people already being forced into an off-role because of the odd number of junglers/mids, I think it would be good to have everyone try out something new.

I like this idea too. Dez and I traded roles the second game and I think it's safe to say we both enjoyed offrolling,

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I have recently trying to learn jungle and there is a lot to take in for that role. I chose to learn this role cause i think there is i formation in that role that would help me be a better team player and take sine stress of the jungle cause it a really demanding. What I am trying to say is that everyone has their comfort zone with a few champs or lanes but if we switched up were people of were they play then maybe over all we can get a better understanding of the game entirely and what is expect of that position. So as a whole we can be stronger as a team. This is really my thoughts of learning league.

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I like the idea of specific focus areas prior to match and in the debrief.  Maybe even with the option of some prep material.

For instance, @MadCast: Pushover posted this really awesome guide on wave management. In the pregame lobby we could discuss wave management and why it's important, and then the debrief would focus on how each lane managed their wave and how it affected the game.

 

I think this format would give everyone an area to focus and improve on. And there are a lot of potential topics. Vision, teamfighting, and neutral objective control are just a few that come to mind. 

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I gave it a bit of thought and I came up with something that feels like a good start.

1) People will play roles / champions that they aren't necessarily comfortable with and want to become better at.

2) Since we have 2 games, one game can be for X set of people to learn (let's say 5, not all on the same team) on uncomfortable spots and then in Game 2 , reverse. I think it's very important to go against someone that knows the position so that they can give you positive feedback on where you're weakest at.

3) Focus on different facets like we have been, maybe just have a floating rotation.

 

Thoughts?

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On 9/6/2018 at 11:56 AM, MadCast: Usefully Useless said:

I gave it a bit of thought and I came up with something that feels like a good start.

1) People will play roles / champions that they aren't necessarily comfortable with and want to become better at.

2) Since we have 2 games, one game can be for X set of people to learn (let's say 5, not all on the same team) on uncomfortable spots and then in Game 2 , reverse. I think it's very important to go against someone that knows the position so that they can give you positive feedback on where you're weakest at.

3) Focus on different facets like we have been, maybe just have a floating rotation.

 

Thoughts?

For a while I have wished that it was pretty much set that players should be trying new champions, or ones they are not great with.

Also I have actually kind of done #2 with @StargazerLilli. Basically we went into a custom and the first game I just showed jungle routes. The second game I contested things like scuttles and the third game I invaded and tried to interrupt stars jungle path. I do know that Star has gotten better, so I would like to think what we did helped a little.

I would like enforcing the use of off-picks. I have wanted to do this before, but often that has put me at a disadvantage - as I am usually on a champ that I don't even really know the passive for (when I pick something new). If I know each game I play, I am going to be facing a teemo, that pretty much turns off my wish to play ANY new melee champ.

In combination with what you said usefull - and the previous comments, I think a good thing to just focus on would be shotcalling. I understand the reservations that were had for my previous idea. A revision to my previous idea - this is what I would LIKE to see:
1) When it comes down to it, teammates need to respond to calls without hesitation. I know this can be REALLY hard to do though - something I have been working on. Something as simple as Jungler: "Yo Racer, Camilee is coming to destroy you" can be hard to take action to immediately IMO. I am sitting there thinking "Ok, she is coming, but I just want this one.... more..... CANNON.... *dies*". What I am getting at - at the base, we should focus on the reaction times, pathing to calls and the mechanics that go into pulling off a play (I have seen more than once a good call be made - either my team or the other - but improper pathing causes somebody to get caught out). I am always super happy to see somebody pull off a cheeky play (even if the enemy team is the one doing it).

2) For any game that you want to focus on shotcalls, it does seem like dedicated shotcallers are needed. Unsure how they should be decided upon though. For higher elo games, I think you guys often have no issue choosing your shotcaller correct? What makes that decision easier?

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1) A lot of that is communication, there's a difference between "Camille is top" vs "Camille is coming top". If you hear she is coming, it means you have a few seconds to get that cannon, then back off, but if she is top, it's time to back off NOW. Pings are even better, it can tell you what direction the gank is coming from and how much time you have.

Some common communication is stuff like "Camille is coming top." "Sejuani can you countergank?" "No, I'm too low." There wasn't much in the way of shotcalling here, just communication between players, the only call was to look for a countergank, but the jungle could not support the call, and they have the most information about whether they can make the play succeed or not. So top lane suggested a play, but it was not a strict call because top lane did not have all of the information needed to make the call. Who was the shotcaller there? Was it top lane by asking for the countergank, or jungle for making the final decision?

 

2) The higher group is full of calls like above, we trust most people to have the basics of their champ and understand limits, communication is key here. Stuff like "If you can hold them mid, I have top inner [turret]", or "3 top! 3 top! Let's drag" Macro stuff is usually open to whoever wants to fill that role (often it's just playing around the people doing well), and even then it's usually decided as a group, stuff like "should I split or group?" Jungle will often call many of the shots early because they are the ones ganking, but it's on the lanes to let them know information like ward locations, summoners used, how gankable the lane is, or how badly they need a gank.

Someone will sometimes take charge for rotations, but what's worse than not having a designated shotcaller is having a designated shotcaller who isn't calling shots. There is rarely arguments over calls because people understand that a decisive call executed quickly is often more important than the best call executed with a delay.

Edited by MadCast: Pushover

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Thank you @MadCast: Aeryx for the focused session last night. I know the lower elo group had a lot of on-the-spot feedback, but after a morning of thinking, I have some more thoughts.

*I think the introduction thread and associated information was really good. A little bit of background and insight and read ahead info is always beneficial

*I also think that the pre-match discussion of why this is an area of focus, how it is important, etc was very well executed.

*I do think more emphasis could be placed on the topic at hand during the post match discussion. For the most part (I'm disregarding the champion pool/play nice feedback from game one), the debrief felt very generic for the most part, and centered around the game as a whole and not as much on the topic at hand. Instead of walking down the lanes and giving an overall assessment, let's talk topic first."so top lane, how did you utilize attack move? What worked with that, what didn't, what did you learn, etc." This will kind of naturally evolve into talk about the game as a whole, but I think a strong focus on the topic in the debrief would help reinforce the learning.

Just my 3 cents. Overall, despite getting rolled in game 1, I enjoyed having something to really focus on and make me think differently about how I play. 

 

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