MadCast: rife170

League of Learning Feedback

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Thank you for the post, Suixide22; I really appreciate the time you took to post feedback, especially since the majority is to let us know that we are on the right track. I also think Aeryx did a wonderful job with the direction he chose.

1 hour ago, MadCast: Suixide22 said:

I do think more emphasis could be placed on the topic at hand during the post match discussion. For the most part (I'm disregarding the champion pool/play nice feedback from game one), the debrief felt very generic for the most part, and centered around the game as a whole and not as much on the topic at hand. Instead of walking down the lanes and giving an overall assessment, let's talk topic first."so top lane, how did you utilize attack move? What worked with that, what didn't, what did you learn, etc." This will kind of naturally evolve into talk about the game as a whole, but I think a strong focus on the topic in the debrief would help reinforce the learning.

One of the things I took to doing in the post-match was to post at least one specific question about the topic to both players. "How did "this focus" affect how you played your lane?", "Did you have to apply X fucus anywhere to accomplish a certain goal?", and others. Obviously, some people are more receptive to the back and forth over others, but it breaks the mold. What we are trying to get away from is the complacency and stagnancy that comes with routine. While some themes like that post-match will remain consistent due to its success, it doesn't mean we can't shake it up.

1 hour ago, MadCast: Suixide22 said:

Just my 3 cents. Overall, despite getting rolled in game 1, I enjoyed having something to really focus on and make me think differently about how I play. 

Again, I appreciate your commentary here. I hope you continue to enjoy the event. 

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In my opinion last night showed how the people in this community really care and actually want to learn. We went from our first game in the Low ELO group getting absolutely shit on, to then putting together a game that was not only competitive, but was something that taught me more about the game than just attack moving.

I definitely liked the "homework" assignments prior to the match, and the discussion beforehand. I do agree with being more focused on the topic after the match itself, as it does feel like we could naturally progress into a breakdown after that. Though I did enjoy what we broke down and the topics covered after the second match. Everyone played admirably, and everyone picked it back up after a really bad first match. 

My critique was more the balancing of teams than it was anything. I understand we had people have to drop down from the higher ELO group because it was full, but it really did make a huge impact on our first match. 

Again, really enjoyed the second one, the progression was wonderful, having a shot caller was great, and just all in all a good learning experience.

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Hey all, 

So I've decided to opt out of League of Learning lately because I've felt that it was too much of a time sink for how much game time we actually would get in. I often felt like my entire evening would get eaten up on only 2 games (both of which would often last less than 30 mins). I think all this excess time is being unnecessarily spent in between games. I think if we were to fix this, we would have to streamline not only the process of getting into game but also the post-match feedback and discussion event. I often feel like we can spend about 15-20 mins trying to get into game (with many dodges due to champion pick mistakes), and up to 30 mins discussing stuff after a game, even when most members have not a whole lot to say. In addition, I often feel like (at least in the higher elo games) there's a lot less learning, and a lot more *pointing out mistakes that people are already aware that they made*. I often find the LoL feels a lot less like a learning experience, and a lot more like a simple in-house competitive series. While I don't have solutions to every problem. I have a few suggestions:

  1. To combat the amount of time spent post-game. Maybe anyone who has thoughts on any player's play in the previous game could take a note or something. And then maybe we could have a thread where people post there thoughts. So, for example, if Kyroo thought I was getting caught out often because I was splitting too much and ignoring the map, he could post about it in like a ADC criticisms thread or something (I'm just spit-balling here, I never get caught out). The central point being: Most of the extra time spent in post-game is due to the fact that each piece of feedback has to be spoken sequentially instead of simultaneously. This leads to most players just spending a ton of time sitting around waiting for people to finish speaking their individual thoughts on an individual player. Which also really kills momentum. I'm pretty sure that most of the time, when one game ends, a lot of people are ready to lay down a few words and jump into the next game (I may be projecting). Either way, if people have ideas on how we could implement the feedback threads, I would love to hear them. 
  2. For getting into games, I think the biggest problem is communication. There often a minority of players taking up a majority of the sonic space. And I honestly don't believe this is because they're too loud and talking to much. I have found time and time again that there are a lot of players who (even when asked) seem to not respond, or are zoned out/not paying attention to positions and champion select. This leads to really incoherent team compositions and people forgetting which role they're playing or who they're trading with. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but I think we really need to encourage high levels of communication. I think that if you're distracted or prefer not to talk at all, LoL's competitive environment is not for you. 
  3. Finally, I think it would be cool if we had some sort of tags that labeled our preferred positions. A fair amount of time is often spent figuring out who's going where and who is being put on which team. Again, I'm not entirely sure how to solve this problem, but a good start would maybe be tags. 

These are just my personal Quips with LoL. While I absolutely adore the competitive environment and team-play, I haven't found it worth it when literally 50%+ of the event time is spent out of game. 

If anyone has any suggestions on how to solve these problems, I would love to hear.

 

 

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9 hours ago, MadCast: Simaniac said:

Hey all, 

So I've decided to opt out of League of Learning lately because I've felt that it was too much of a time sink for how much game time we actually would get in. I often felt like my entire evening would get eaten up on only 2 games (both of which would often last less than 30 mins). I think all this excess time is being unnecessarily spent in between games. I think if we were to fix this, we would have to streamline not only the process of getting into game but also the post-match feedback and discussion event. I often feel like we can spend about 15-20 mins trying to get into game (with many dodges due to champion pick mistakes), and up to 30 mins discussing stuff after a game, even when most members have not a whole lot to say. In addition, I often feel like (at least in the higher elo games) there's a lot less learning, and a lot more *pointing out mistakes that people are already aware that they made*. I often find the LoL feels a lot less like a learning experience, and a lot more like a simple in-house competitive series. While I don't have solutions to every problem. I have a few suggestions:

  1. To combat the amount of time spent post-game. Maybe anyone who has thoughts on any player's play in the previous game could take a note or something. And then maybe we could have a thread where people post there thoughts. So, for example, if Kyroo thought I was getting caught out often because I was splitting too much and ignoring the map, he could post about it in like a ADC criticisms thread or something (I'm just spit-balling here, I never get caught out). The central point being: Most of the extra time spent in post-game is due to the fact that each piece of feedback has to be spoken sequentially instead of simultaneously. This leads to most players just spending a ton of time sitting around waiting for people to finish speaking their individual thoughts on an individual player. Which also really kills momentum. I'm pretty sure that most of the time, when one game ends, a lot of people are ready to lay down a few words and jump into the next game (I may be projecting). Either way, if people have ideas on how we could implement the feedback threads, I would love to hear them. 
  2. For getting into games, I think the biggest problem is communication. There often a minority of players taking up a majority of the sonic space. And I honestly don't believe this is because they're too loud and talking to much. I have found time and time again that there are a lot of players who (even when asked) seem to not respond, or are zoned out/not paying attention to positions and champion select. This leads to really incoherent team compositions and people forgetting which role they're playing or who they're trading with. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but I think we really need to encourage high levels of communication. I think that if you're distracted or prefer not to talk at all, LoL's competitive environment is not for you. 
  3. Finally, I think it would be cool if we had some sort of tags that labeled our preferred positions. A fair amount of time is often spent figuring out who's going where and who is being put on which team. Again, I'm not entirely sure how to solve this problem, but a good start would maybe be tags. 

These are just my personal Quips with LoL. While I absolutely adore the competitive environment and team-play, I haven't found it worth it when literally 50%+ of the event time is spent out of game. 

If anyone has any suggestions on how to solve these problems, I would love to hear.

 

 

I would agree that we spend a lot of time talking about every lane. I feel like unless we are focusing on laning, or unless someone wants to explicitly comment about how someone did something maybe incorrect in the lane, a lot of the time the commentary from everyone is like 'eh we farmed the lane and that's everything' or 'I died to that gank when I should obviously have had that warded or played safer.' or 'I died a lot when I should have played safer'. Maybe this only applies to the higher ELO group, but I can't think of many times where going top to bottom has really had some insightful feedback that couldn't be covered really quickly. I can generally call out the important decisions. I think talking about the macro play and decision making is much more important and helpful than talking about laning mechanics. It can be good to quickly talk about who won lane and why (was it matchup, jungle ganks, mechanical mis/outplays etc?), but a single sentence from each player can generally cover most laning phases such as 'I won lane because Zac ganked my lane 6 times.' 'Yeah, I didn't ward deep enough.'

I would agree that a text channel to talk about things while people are talking, allowing the discussion to go on tangents would maybe help speed up analysis, instead of waiting to go on tangents.

I do think that a mic should be required to participate in League of Learning, it's a pretty huge disadvantage to not have the instant communication you would want.

 

I do know that @MadCast: Support Welfare was talking about maybe trying to do something involving replay analysis for a much more indepth look at the game at a separate time, but I did have my reservations about it (replay analysis is not a quick activity, and it's hard to get everyone to commit to another time). I wouldn't mind looking at replays, but my analysis would likely be in the form of a post rather than anything else.) That said, it could allow us to play the games with more minimal postgame discussion if we knew that there would be additional analysis done later.

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Pushover’s Perfect Postgame - The forum thread where Pushover talks you through the replays and teaches you the 3 P’s of league of legends: Preperation, Power, and Flaming teammates. Coming soon.

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On 10/19/2018 at 5:39 PM, MadCast: Simaniac said:

Hey all, 

So I've decided to opt out of League of Learning lately because I've felt that it was too much of a time sink for how much game time we actually would get in. I often felt like my entire evening would get eaten up on only 2 games (both of which would often last less than 30 mins). I think all this excess time is being unnecessarily spent in between games. I think if we were to fix this, we would have to streamline not only the process of getting into game but also the post-match feedback and discussion event. I often feel like we can spend about 15-20 mins trying to get into game (with many dodges due to champion pick mistakes), and up to 30 mins discussing stuff after a game, even when most members have not a whole lot to say. In addition, I often feel like (at least in the higher elo games) there's a lot less learning, and a lot more *pointing out mistakes that people are already aware that they made*. I often find the LoL feels a lot less like a learning experience, and a lot more like a simple in-house competitive series. While I don't have solutions to every problem. I have a few suggestions:

  1. To combat the amount of time spent post-game. Maybe anyone who has thoughts on any player's play in the previous game could take a note or something. And then maybe we could have a thread where people post there thoughts. So, for example, if Kyroo thought I was getting caught out often because I was splitting too much and ignoring the map, he could post about it in like a ADC criticisms thread or something (I'm just spit-balling here, I never get caught out). The central point being: Most of the extra time spent in post-game is due to the fact that each piece of feedback has to be spoken sequentially instead of simultaneously. This leads to most players just spending a ton of time sitting around waiting for people to finish speaking their individual thoughts on an individual player. Which also really kills momentum. I'm pretty sure that most of the time, when one game ends, a lot of people are ready to lay down a few words and jump into the next game (I may be projecting). Either way, if people have ideas on how we could implement the feedback threads, I would love to hear them. 
  2. For getting into games, I think the biggest problem is communication. There often a minority of players taking up a majority of the sonic space. And I honestly don't believe this is because they're too loud and talking to much. I have found time and time again that there are a lot of players who (even when asked) seem to not respond, or are zoned out/not paying attention to positions and champion select. This leads to really incoherent team compositions and people forgetting which role they're playing or who they're trading with. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but I think we really need to encourage high levels of communication. I think that if you're distracted or prefer not to talk at all, LoL's competitive environment is not for you. 
  3. Finally, I think it would be cool if we had some sort of tags that labeled our preferred positions. A fair amount of time is often spent figuring out who's going where and who is being put on which team. Again, I'm not entirely sure how to solve this problem, but a good start would maybe be tags. 

These are just my personal Quips with LoL. While I absolutely adore the competitive environment and team-play, I haven't found it worth it when literally 50%+ of the event time is spent out of game. 

If anyone has any suggestions on how to solve these problems, I would love to hear.

I'm genuinely curious if this is isolated to the upper ELO band. 

1) We do spend a lot of time talking about how to improve.  This includes mistakes, things that were done well, the match-up, and the topic point.  There's probably less benefit to the higher level players doing this but I think this is really important in the lower ELO.  Lately, I've spent a large number of games spectating and taking notes to help facilitate the discussion in an effort to provide meaningful and more concise dialog while still allowing players the opportunity to discuss the game.  If that's not helpful please let me know and we can change something (lower elo group) .  Perhaps opening a League of Learning text room would be a quicker means to discuss everything needed for the upper ELO group...sadly I don't know.  I am inclined to agree with you that League of Learning would be more of a competitive weekly in-house if we did that.  The thing is I don't know if the upper ELO group benefits more from that than what we are doing.  That's why we have this thread and it's defiantly a topic worth discussing, we really do strive to make this a competitive and fun event and if there's a better way to do it I'd love to hear it.        

2) & 3) I believe these two are related.  There are times when I do think that getting into games could go faster and I think that's something that (as you correctly pointed out) is best solved by communication. We could come up with tags but often people don't get their preferred lanes.  While we try to balance by skill and preferred lane match ups it's not always the easiest thing to do.  I think maybe a more practical way forward is after we sort into room to start a 2:00 (I just chose a number) timer and when it goes off the match is started.   

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I definitely liked skipping lane matchups in the higher elo group today, I think the first game laning was a little weird naturally (swapping Viktor/Darius vs Irelia/Malz to get favorable lanes), obviously neither team should have given up the solo kills in laning phase, and it was obvious what the favored matchups were. Allowed us to talk more about the draft as well as mid/late, which was where the gameplay really happened anyways. 2nd game just turned into one of those 'all 3 lanes and jungle wins' games, so I'm glad we got to skip 'well mid won... then bot won... then top won... then we grouped... and won'. We had good focus on communication in the first game.

I think we did ignore the attack move theme (Boo to Epic for playing Malz and ulting me every fight, CLEARLY not allowing me to attack move :P), but I don't think it mattered that much, the first game was an excellent game and we got some pretty decent analysis out of it.

P.S: Buy your pink wards.

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9 hours ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

I definitely liked skipping lane matchups in the higher elo group today, I think the first game laning was a little weird naturally (swapping Viktor/Darius vs Irelia/Malz to get favorable lanes), obviously neither team should have given up the solo kills in laning phase, and it was obvious what the favored matchups were. Allowed us to talk more about the draft as well as mid/late, which was where the gameplay really happened anyways. 2nd game just turned into one of those 'all 3 lanes and jungle wins' games, so I'm glad we got to skip 'well mid won... then bot won... then top won... then we grouped... and won'. We had good focus on communication in the first game.

I think we did ignore the attack move theme (Boo to Epic for playing Malz and ulting me every fight, CLEARLY not allowing me to attack move :P), but I don't think it mattered that much, the first game was an excellent game and we got some pretty decent analysis out of it.

P.S: Buy your pink wards.

 

Thank you for your feedback, Pushover. 

You would do well to remember that it’s me that decides if you get to move during a game. 😘

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I'd like to throw out some (very rough) ideas that I have had recently after seeing comments others have made about weekly topics and feedback. Regarding this past topic (orbwalking/kiting/a-move): I really liked this topic when it was introduced, and it's a nice divergence from the macro-focused set of topics we had previously. However, playing a full summoner's rift game makes it hard to truly focus on the topic and give meaningful feedback regarding it, because there's so much else going on and I haven't been able to comment on anyone else's a-moving except for my lane opponent. I think that there are probably better ways to focus on and practice attack moving. In my head this is like LoL versions of drills one might run on a soccer or basketball team. If a coach wants their team to practice making short, accurate passes they don't play a full game; instead they might run small-sided (ie. 3v3) drills in a small zone so that players must make those short passes. However, League of Learning is a voluntary activity that we all take time out of our days to attend and playing full games is certainly more appealing than running "drills." But I felt some dissonance between efforts to encourage players to use champions that a-move more than others and pushback from players who didn't want to. Personally I think this could be improved by either running "drills" on micro-intensive topics or playing full games focused on macro topics.

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I think part of the issue is that drills can be done solo for the most part. Stuff like CSing early (I occasionally hop into a custom and see how close I can get to 43 CS at 5 mins, which is perfect CS with no jungle or TP involved when in a side lane). You might be able to simulate some basic mechanics like kiting just by using the practice tool and a practice dummy, same with some of the complex ward drops (ward over the top lane blue side wall near the first turret to land it in the bush, ward over dragon or baron wall to land in the tribush, etc). You could potentially open a thread on what drills people practice, but when it comes down to it, some things are moderately difficult to practice.

Otherwise, it's hard to simulate a real game. 1v1s in the top lane are rarely realistic, because the person with better all-in pressure has a big advantage because they know there is no jungle intervention possible. If you do add a jungler, it just turns into 'which jungler is camping top more' since that's the only lane to gank.

A lot of the concepts we have talked about in the past are very nebulous. To use objective control as an example, it contains elements of shot calling, vision control, teamfighting, wave management, etc. Drafting is another topic that I don't think we've covered heavily. Do you draft favorable lanes? Do you draft for a teamfight? Do you draft for a split push composition? How do you mix everything together? All of this takes understanding what each champion brings to the table, lane matchups, etc, and is impossible to really do without playing the game out. Fantasy drafts tend to not work out as well, since people will disagree on which picks are stronger very often. 

In the last few weeks, instead of attack move, I would argue that the upper ELO group has been focusing on communication, since whoever is trying to make a call needs as much information as possible to make the best possible call. It's also not a skill that's really possible to practice if you play solo queue, although you can still communicate to lesser effectiveness with pings.

I think that in some cases (like attack move), some topics should be a weekly or biweekly topic. Alternatively, really nailing down a narrow focus within a broad topic for each week might be good. To use shotcalling as an example, week 1 could be related to making and following decisive calls. Week 2 could be devoted to communicating important information so that calls can be made. Week 3 can be about some of the small calls that are made throughout the game (can you help me with Scuttle/can you help me invade for their buff, etc), and week 4 could just be a summary week. A topic as complex as laning could even be used across 2 months, with topics such as vision control/gank paths, trading/harassing, wave manipulation, back timing/making good buys, drafting lane matchups while fitting a team composition, making roams, item/level power spikes and more.

Edited by MadCast: Pushover

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To go even further on this idea, there are multiple decisions or plays that can be discussed such as : scuttle is coming up bot side river - can we set up a push bot and mid to time it with the scuttle? can we set up some vision to make a more informative call on this? if we can't get it or it seems risky - can we allow the wave to push in top and gank / rift / counter jungle?

These are super specific calls but to give them a topic name - Being proactive? Being proactive vs being reactive? Most of the time you want to be proactive in games so plays happen quicker and more fluid.

Most of these are more geared for the upper elo I would say, but make for a very intriguing learning experience.

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On 10/27/2018 at 12:49 AM, MadCast: Pushover said:

I think part of the issue is that drills can be done solo for the most part. Stuff like CSing early (I occasionally hop into a custom and see how close I can get to 43 CS at 5 mins, which is perfect CS with no jungle or TP involved when in a side lane). You might be able to simulate some basic mechanics like kiting just by using the practice tool and a practice dummy, same with some of the complex ward drops (ward over the top lane blue side wall near the first turret to land it in the bush, ward over dragon or baron wall to land in the tribush, etc). You could potentially open a thread on what drills people practice, but when it comes down to it, some things are moderately difficult to practice.

Otherwise, it's hard to simulate a real game. 1v1s in the top lane are rarely realistic, because the person with better all-in pressure has a big advantage because they know there is no jungle intervention possible. If you do add a jungler, it just turns into 'which jungler is camping top more' since that's the only lane to gank.

A lot of the concepts we have talked about in the past are very nebulous. To use objective control as an example, it contains elements of shot calling, vision control, teamfighting, wave management, etc. Drafting is another topic that I don't think we've covered heavily. Do you draft favorable lanes? Do you draft for a teamfight? Do you draft for a split push composition? How do you mix everything together? All of this takes understanding what each champion brings to the table, lane matchups, etc, and is impossible to really do without playing the game out. Fantasy drafts tend to not work out as well, since people will disagree on which picks are stronger very often. 

In the last few weeks, instead of attack move, I would argue that the upper ELO group has been focusing on communication, since whoever is trying to make a call needs as much information as possible to make the best possible call. It's also not a skill that's really possible to practice if you play solo queue, although you can still communicate to lesser effectiveness with pings.

I think that in some cases (like attack move), some topics should be a weekly or biweekly topic. Alternatively, really nailing down a narrow focus within a broad topic for each week might be good. To use shotcalling as an example, week 1 could be related to making and following decisive calls. Week 2 could be devoted to communicating important information so that calls can be made. Week 3 can be about some of the small calls that are made throughout the game (can you help me with Scuttle/can you help me invade for their buff, etc), and week 4 could just be a summary week. A topic as complex as laning could even be used across 2 months, with topics such as vision control/gank paths, trading/harassing, wave manipulation, back timing/making good buys, drafting lane matchups while fitting a team composition, making roams, item/level power spikes and more.

You make a good point about drills, and I think the idea of splitting large subjects into smaller topics to cover one topic each week is a great solution to this. Small subjects (like a-move) only being covered for a week also makes sense to me.

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On a totally different note, I've been really disappointed with a few of the attitudes I've seen in the past few weeks of League of Learning, and last week (11/1) was especially bad. I've noticed a trend that when a game is going poorly someone will say "Let's ff, there's nothing to learn from getting smashed" (or something along those lines). While I have certainly felt this way and understand the sentiment I think it runs counter to the spirit of the event. Given our skill levels (especially in the lower elo game I play in) wins are almost never guaranteed and comebacks are possible. This sentiment appeared in both games last week when an enemy assassin got fed, and a (squishy) carry decided that the game was therefore over. A friend of mine participated in the event and when I asked him about joining MadCast he said "If that's what my Thursdays would be like then hell no. [The team attitude] was miserable."

There's several factors here to examine: first, I never want to hear that participating in a MadCast event was "miserable" for anyone - member or associate. There's been a lot of discussion around applicants and what it takes to be a member here, but none of that matters if associates have bad experiences with us and never apply or just leave. We should be just as fun and welcoming in-game as we are outside of it.

The second and third factors relate more closely to the event's goal: playing from behind and dealing with a fed opponent (esp. assassins). I think playing from behind is just as important a skill as any other and should be treated as such - even though it's less fun. Forfeiting early not only prevents learning to play from behind it also keeps the team that's ahead from practicing building their lead, playing around fed teammate(s), and closing out the game. Dealing with an enemy that got fed early is also an important skill that feels underrated. Both games last week featured a fed assassin and 2 winning lanes (kha'zix, top/mid in game 1, leblanc, top/bot in game 2) and a strong lead for the other team (viktor/ezreal game 1, graves/galio game 2). There were opportunities to play around the winning lane(s) and mitigate the assassin's control of the game, but these weren't taken because we disagreed on the best way to do so. This series of events (assassin gets fed, takes control, opponents don't/can't play around it, game spirals out of control) is a trend I've noticed pretty often in the lower elo games, and I think it could make a decent topic.

Other improvements to the event are hard to make if participants don't enjoy it, and learning certainly won't happen in such an environment. I think there should be emphasis on having the correct mindset for a (semi-)competitive game of learning and improvement as well as on playing the game and the week's topic. That way we can all learn, improve, and enjoy ourselves - win or lose.

Edit: I think a contributing factor (last week) was the rush to get into game quickly. Several people had expressed feeling there was too much time between games, but last week it got in the way of proper team balance as the prevailing sentiment was 'it'll be fine, just start the game.' I think we can balance teams and still get into game quickly without sacrificing participant experience.

Edited by MadCast: RopesAreRad

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To piggyback off of RopesAreRad I think after last week we definitely found that we need to have a topic based more around communication. The first game we had was severely lacking in it. I know personally I felt that we had issues just choosing our roles, and it started snowballing from there. We had a lot of weak points with vision, communication, and following up. When I joined the other team for game 2 (even onto a role I don't excel at,) I still found the game was much more enjoyable for the overall attitude, and communication. It really makes a huge impact on how you play, and how others around you play as well.

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I agree wholeheartedly with Ropes. It's funny he mentions this being in the lower elo games, when I had whispered to Epic that I felt the same way in higher elo games. It looks like we have a case of attitude problems on our hands... and to be quite honest it gets less and less fun each week. Communication stops, thoughtless plays occur, and bickering intensifies. I don't want to sit here and name names, but there are plenty of people in the higher elo games who I am referring to.

I've said it a hundred times to so many people, but maintaining a positive attitude and looking at mistakes or lost fights from a perspective where it's only my fault seriously improved my gameplay (especially when I was actively climbing the ladder). If there is no desire to learn or get better from recognizing your own faults, you won't get better.

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2 minutes ago, MadCast: kyro said:

I agree wholeheartedly with Ropes. It's funny he mentions this being in the lower elo games, when I had whispered to Epic that I felt the same way in higher elo games. It looks like we have a case of attitude problems on our hands... and to be quite honest it gets less and less fun each week. Communication stops, thoughtless plays occur, and bickering intensifies. I don't want to sit here and name names, but there are plenty of people in the higher elo games who I am referring to.

I've said it a hundred times to so many people, but maintaining a positive attitude and looking at mistakes or lost fights from a perspective where it's only my fault seriously improved my gameplay (especially when I was actively climbing the ladder). If there is no desire to learn or get better from recognizing your own faults, you won't get better.

When I make mistakes , most of the time I will say "My bad" or "My fault". For example of what I do wrong sometimes, I will get a little frustrated when someone doesn't collapse on a scuttle. It's initially frustrating but I know later it was my fault for not being aware of my surroundings.

That being said I only have a couple of issues -( #1 )... with an exclamation point (!). If I make a mistake the last thing I want to hear is a condoning voice  saying "THAT WAS TERRIBLE DON'T EVERY DO THAT AGAIN". My absolute WORST pet peeve is being "scolded" when I already know I've made my mistake. I'm human and sometimes intoxicated, I'm going to mess up. We're supposed to be learning in a cool , calming environment. This is why I wanted to voice my opinions about going away from these "in-houses" style of games because it promotes high competition which initially can bring the bad out in some people. That being said ( #2 ) - If you are upset. If you don't feel like playing. If you are tilted. If you just don't like it anymore... Don't come! If your previously negative spirits come into a game it's infectious! In my opinion it's better to have 10 people that want to play instead of 14 that do , 6 that don't - mix them up , shake them around and let the tilt spew. It's not necessarily a personality problem or an individual problem, just be aware of your attitude. Probably not a great idea to lose 4 ranked games in a row and slam right into  a League of Learning.

Trust me, I'm speaking for myself here as well so don't think I'm getting on a soapbox! I've got 2 fingers pointed right back at me. Just food for thought.

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Maybe it would benefit us to split into smaller groups? 

Have you ever sat in a classroom and felt kind of left out because there were too many students? I feel that kind of way with League of Learning. Essentially breaking it up into smaller groups would not only help get the "bad apples" out of the way to go back to larger groups, but it would also help those who want to primarily focus on the topic learn in a more controlled environment.

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I felt League of Learning went much better this week (11/8)! In the upper ELO group we played 2 pretty close games, and communication was much better and more positive. I think a quick reminder that this is a friendly, semi-competitive event helps reset mental states and prepare everyone for the games. Thanks for the responsiveness to feedback!

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7 hours ago, MadCast: RopesAreRad said:

I felt League of Learning went much better this week (11/8)! In the upper ELO group we played 2 pretty close games, and communication was much better and more positive. I think a quick reminder that this is a friendly, semi-competitive event helps reset mental states and prepare everyone for the games. Thanks for the responsiveness to feedback!

I loved the matches we played and how communicative the team was. I was really happy to see us correct in the second match, by almost over-communicating and picking up on each other's play styles better. The fact that the matches went 1-1 were wonderful.

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I have an idea for helping to streamline the formation of teams.

Could we introduce a discord role system for Elo and top 2 preferred roles? Lots of Discords have utilized a user-friendly method of having folks :react: to preset icons in a text channel. By doing do, they can quickly select and deselect roles. We could also have it only be temporary by creating a temporary (Thursday Only) LoL text channel with these features. It would require minimal setup in the morning by one of our RFM+ members, and would also allow for more in-depth post-game discussion.

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On 10/20/2018 at 5:31 PM, MadCast: Pushover said:

I would agree that we spend a lot of time talking about every lane. I feel like unless we are focusing on laning, or unless someone wants to explicitly comment about how someone did something maybe incorrect in the lane, a lot of the time the commentary from everyone is like 'eh we farmed the lane and that's everything' or 'I died to that gank when I should obviously have had that warded or played safer.' or 'I died a lot when I should have played safer'. Maybe this only applies to the higher ELO group, but I can't think of many times where going top to bottom has really had some insightful feedback that couldn't be covered really quickly. I can generally call out the important decisions. I think talking about the macro play and decision making is much more important and helpful than talking about laning mechanics. It can be good to quickly talk about who won lane and why (was it matchup, jungle ganks, mechanical mis/outplays etc?), but a single sentence from each player can generally cover most laning phases such as 'I won lane because Zac ganked my lane 6 times.' 'Yeah, I didn't ward deep enough.'

I would agree that a text channel to talk about things while people are talking, allowing the discussion to go on tangents would maybe help speed up analysis, instead of waiting to go on tangents.

I do think that a mic should be required to participate in League of Learning, it's a pretty huge disadvantage to not have the instant communication you would want.

I agree with Push here. Maybe it could be interesting to have the jungler one week speak about how they thought the lanes were doing and why he picked them as targets?

 

Most of the reasons I have seen people lose lane the last couple of weeks or at least the reasons they say they lost is that "I got hit by this gank and it was downhill from there." I know I have used it before. :P

 

Having people have a deeper understanding of "What was the mindset of the jungler" might have a deeper conversation.

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On 11/11/2018 at 9:33 PM, 3footmonkey said:

 

Having people have a deeper understanding of "What was the mindset of the jungler" might have a deeper conversation.

I feel like that's something that varies based upon each player and how they jungle. For instance I'm one of those players that looks for opportunities, but I also respond to call outs for help more than anything. If anyone has a struggling lane I try to get them the gold advantage or at least burn a summoner, etc. 

I do think the jungle has a huge impact on the match up, but there's so much more to it that could be discussed. Warding, roaming from other lanes, playing passive or aggressive, etc.

----
I would like to say that this last week in League of Learning was my favorite thus far that I've played. I feel like I'm definitely seeing huge improvements in the members, and the event is heading in the direction it should be going. I do agree though that a text channel should be active for the communications afterwards for people to tangent.

Edited by doublestufforeo

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I feel like jungling is the worst position to play stress-wise. If a lane loses - jungles fault. If an enemy jungler ganks - jungles fault. It could easily feel that way. A few good points to single out as we go into next week would be :

 

1) What is our win condition?  Under said win condition , is it a weak early game champion? If so , we  put priority on other lanes early in the game. If it's feasible to make a smart play on the opposing laner let's be proactive and clear out wards / place pinks AHEAD of time. Facerolling into a lane not knowing if vision is there drastically reduces our chances of a successful gank. The goal here is to be proactive and make them react.

 

2) If you are losing lane the % of something good coming out of a gank are pretty low. As much as I would love to gank a pushed lane with no summs and no vision, it just doesn't happen very often in upper elo groups.

 

3) Sorting out the comms. 3 lanes at once saying "Come mid" "Come bot" "Come top" -  I have to make a judgement call. It may not turn out to be a good call or the best call may to be just farm sometimes.  Someone is going to be left out, it happens in those situations.  Saying " That was a bad call.. that was a bad play .. that was terrible" does nothing positive for the game.  It is a waste of time and energy.

DO NOT HARP ON SOMEONE FOR MAKING A JUDGEMENT CALL - we can go back to that after game and  say "During X play, what were you thinking? ... Ok , well I feel that you would be better served going X and doing X"

If we all use communication correctly we should be able to clearly lay out a concrete plan and adjust to that plan as the game goes, however, if we just randomly go into the game and react to how the game is playing out we will be behind. Gotta be one step ahead by planning things out!

Edited by MadCast: Usefully Useless

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On 11/17/2018 at 4:16 PM, MadCast: Usefully Useless said:

DO NOT HARP ON SOMEONE FOR MAKING A JUDGEMENT CALL - we can go back to that after game and  say "During X play, what were you thinking? ... Ok , well I feel that you would be better served going X and doing X"

If we all use communication correctly we should be able to clearly lay out a concrete plan and adjust to that plan as the game goes, however, if we just randomly go into the game and react to how the game is playing out we will be behind. Gotta be one step ahead by planning things out!

I think this is a great call out. I know sometimes we try to rush into games and don't get to plan. Especially in the second game. This can end up having an adverse effect because teams are going in blind without a plan.

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