MadCast: rife170

League of Learning Feedback

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My biggest critique is unfortunately how long it takes to get a match started. I would love to see some sort of sign up beforehand implemented with preferred roles and attendance (e.g. game 1, game 2). It took 15 minutes to get started today, and it's always a little odd getting everyone together and into a role they enjoy. I'm not saying we didn't get there, but it's something that could be drastically reduced.

I feel that if we can sign up for MCL, we can sign up in advance for LoL as well.

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14 hours ago, MadCast: doublestufforeo said:

My biggest critique is unfortunately how long it takes to get a match started. I would love to see some sort of sign up beforehand implemented with preferred roles and attendance (e.g. game 1, game 2). It took 15 minutes to get started today, and it's always a little odd getting everyone together and into a role they enjoy. I'm not saying we didn't get there, but it's something that could be drastically reduced.

I feel that if we can sign up for MCL, we can sign up in advance for LoL as well.

I don't think that is an out of line critique. I will see what we can do. 

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I know that usually this thread is left for critiques from what I have seen but I just wanted to say I thought the last topic was fantastic and we had some really competitive games last night but very little to no negativity DURING the game. At least on the teams that I was on. It is super refreshing to be that competitive and have everyone be cool headed.

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2 minutes ago, 3footmonkey said:

I know that usually this thread is left for critiques from what I have seen but I just wanted to say I thought the last topic was fantastic and we had some really competitive games last night but very little to no negativity DURING the game. At least on the teams that I was on. It is super refreshing to be that competitive and have everyone be cool headed.

I'm not sure what you are complaining about here. Please make your feedback more critical. 

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17 hours ago, MadCast: doublestufforeo said:

My biggest critique is unfortunately how long it takes to get a match started. I would love to see some sort of sign up beforehand implemented with preferred roles and attendance (e.g. game 1, game 2). It took 15 minutes to get started today, and it's always a little odd getting everyone together and into a role they enjoy. I'm not saying we didn't get there, but it's something that could be drastically reduced.

I feel that if we can sign up for MCL, we can sign up in advance for LoL as well.

Can't say I agree with a sign up. League of Learning is something I want to attend to just chill and play if I can make it that week. MCL is definitely something I am trying harder in, so a signup is more necessary since it is a long-term and more serious commitment. I wouldn't want to punish a player for arriving early to the event because they forgot to sign up and I don't think you can expect consistency when signing up for a weekly event (at least from me because there is no way I'd remember). I think a sign up sheet would be good if we were getting like 40+ people.

I think the event usually ends at around ~11:15 anyways, which is probably largely due to our discussions being at least 15 minutes after each game... or it used to be since we deviated from the traditional lane by lane into late game rundown.

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1 hour ago, MadCast: kyro said:

Can't say I agree with a sign up. League of Learning is something I want to attend to just chill and play if I can make it that week. MCL is definitely something I am trying harder in, so a signup is more necessary since it is a long-term and more serious commitment. I wouldn't want to punish a player for arriving early to the event because they forgot to sign up and I don't think you can expect consistency when signing up for a weekly event (at least from me because there is no way I'd remember). I think a sign up sheet would be good if we were getting like 40+ people.

I think the event usually ends at around ~11:15 anyways, which is probably largely due to our discussions being at least 15 minutes after each game... or it used to be since we deviated from the traditional lane by lane into late game rundown.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a sign up though. We were sitting in that lobby for 30+ minutes before the games started. While yes it was fun to get some ARAMS in beforehand. Maybe we can just start assigning things there and filling roles and secondaries as they come in beforehand so that we can do a quick pow-wow and then continuing on into the matches.

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Personally I get home typically within 5 minutes of 6 PM PST. I have missed games due to traffic on the commute back, because I get pulled into a late meeting, or a meeting goes long. I could not reliably sign up for LoL if you expect everyone to be on 15 minutes before.

As I've said before, starting 30 minutes later is much more doable for me, but people want to end before 11 PM EST.

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On 12/7/2018 at 4:28 PM, MadCast: kyro said:

Can't say I agree with a sign up. League of Learning is something I want to attend to just chill and play if I can make it that week. MCL is definitely something I am trying harder in, so a signup is more necessary since it is a long-term and more serious commitment. I wouldn't want to punish a player for arriving early to the event because they forgot to sign up and I don't think you can expect consistency when signing up for a weekly event (at least from me because there is no way I'd remember). I think a sign up sheet would be good if we were getting like 40+ people.

I think the event usually ends at around ~11:15 anyways, which is probably largely due to our discussions being at least 15 minutes after each game... or it used to be since we deviated from the traditional lane by lane into late game rundown.

I tend to agree with Kyro and  I love the discussions after the games and would hate to see those trimmed down because that is loads of fun for me analyzing what our mistakes or strengths were.

Edited by 3footmonkey

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I'm going to repeat my critique from the town hall.  This event in particular should absolutely be streamed.  If you find yourself as the 11th man and just spectating when you have the ability to stream, then you should fire that stream up fellas and gals.  The stream will give an outside look and critiques in real time if you want to go back and watch your VOD, especially after your lane match tells you what they think you were doing wrong, would be  a lot easier to see it first hand.

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26 minutes ago, MadCast: bigdommer said:

I'm going to repeat my critique from the town hall.  This event in particular should absolutely be streamed.  If you find yourself as the 11th man and just spectating when you have the ability to stream, then you should fire that stream up fellas and gals.  The stream will give an outside look and critiques in real time if you want to go back and watch your VOD, especially after your lane match tells you what they think you were doing wrong, would be  a lot easier to see it first hand.

I think this is a great idea. It is a different story to hear feedback and then watch it again than to just hear it and forget about it the next day.

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20 hours ago, MadCast: bigdommer said:

I'm going to repeat my critique from the town hall.  This event in particular should absolutely be streamed.  If you find yourself as the 11th man and just spectating when you have the ability to stream, then you should fire that stream up fellas and gals.  The stream will give an outside look and critiques in real time if you want to go back and watch your VOD, especially after your lane match tells you what they think you were doing wrong, would be  a lot easier to see it first hand.

I think this is a fantastic idea. That way I can watch the game the next day while I am at work as well. While I am being totally productive. Yeah. . . productive. >.>

 

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My biggest critique tonight, again, how long the games take to start. The first match and the second both took ~15 minutes to fire up. People tend to show up at the event exactly when it's prescribed to start, and it just kind of makes us wait until last minute to get a count.

Maybe implementing some sort of system where you change your nickname in Discord prior to what your rank and roles are might be beneficial?

Just trying to streamline this, as 30 minutes of sitting around doing nothing doesn't really make for a fun night.


Past that we did have wonderful after game conversations, and addressed issues in a professional manner. My request to the MadCast community though is give some respect to @MadCast: Support Welfare for running the event, and give him the time to speak his peace instead of having a bunch of side bar conversations.

It would help immensely if we all just buckled down for 5 minutes, stopped talking over each other, and got the ball rolling.

Doublestuff "just my two cents" Oreo

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Maybe having a live Google Doc spreadsheet of everyone's IGN's, current Rank, and preferred roles? Everyone can go in and edit as needed if their rank changes or they decide they want to switch up their roles prior to the event, and that way they can already be sorted by Low Elo and High Elo. Then when people join into the call and start getting into a lobby, whoever is organizing it can look at the document at a glance and be able to organize better without having everyone having to type in lobby chat or pipe up in Discord. Just a thought!

Edited by damehasclass

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My one gripe is that we focus a ton on communication in LoL and a lot of that when playing with a team of 5 people you know is having voice comms. Yes. The ping system exists and it's solid for SoloQ, but when you listen to pros comms, there is a ton of voice + pings.

I don't think you should be allowed into League of Learning without a mic. I'll continue to play with people that don't have a mic and I'm not going to quit the event or anything, but I think it's a major disadvantage to a team when you have 4 mics vs 5 mics in an event that's focus is on communication and working together to tackle various topics of the day.

---

Also, fully agree with @MadCast: bigdommer. Would love to have this event streamed, but if we do that, to @MadCast: doublestufforeo's point, you should be online, done patching, and ready to go 5 mins before 9:00 ET.

If we're streaming, then we should be discussing the 1st game while the 2nd game is being setup. If you need to reference the stats, you can pull them up online in Match History while you get into lobby for game two.

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I think it might be helpful to have whoever is hosting/coaching the event NOT play the matches. I realize that means finding another person, but there's only so much you can see while trying to still play with your team. Spectating would et the coach watch both teams and give pretty consistent feedback for the entire match. It seemed to me like one team got good feedback, and the other team got feedback based mostly on end-game stats.

 

Otherwise, I think this is an awesome idea for a weekly event. Usually I see stuff like this get put together, and then it turns into high-elo players roflstomping low-elo players and then giving "tips" at the end. This seems like an event that everyone can take something away from.

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Didn't learn much.  But enjoyed my time with the people.  Perhaps there can be role masters that can offer coaching advice from higher to lower elo.  I wanted to learn about being a better support main  however, I ended up choosing an off-role to keep things balanced.  I don't have suggestions at the moment because I haven't been consistent with the event but, these are my thoughts from my experience today.

 

Thank you.

 

-Verdinas

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Yesterday, was the first experience in League I had in that manner period. I learned some things I will hopefully be able to carry forward, like needing to be more confident in my damage. More than that though, it was fun, like really fun, I knew that there were players above my own elo, and usually that's just not fun, but that wasnt the case here. I can't remember that I had genuine non-stress fun in League, so thank you.

 

Thanks for memeing - Mike

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Positive take away from tonight, first off thank you to Outcast who taught me something about Thresh. Secondly I'd like to thank @MadCast: Namflow for being extremely constructive and communicative. You definitely helped me see a more positive out of tonight's event. We need more people like him in LoL and MadCast in general.

Also shoutout to @MadCast: TheMaesen  for not giving the pentakill to Yorick. 

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Shoutout to all the new people who came and joined us for League of Learning last night! Had fun and got to learn some stuff, even after the inhouse games when we did some premade stuff.  Mainly that I suck with Thresh hooks and should stick to Lux q's buuuuuutttttt it's all good.

@MadCast: WazapI hate your Ez play, I liked mine in ARAM much much more :D

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Replying here instead of the other thread:

20 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

 The fact is that the lower ELO conversations for lanes typically goes something like this, (bot lane) "The enemy ADC was just much better at CSing than I was.  I need to work more on my CS." or "The enemy bot lane just poked us out and we couldn't even touch the wave.".  (Mid lane) "The matchup was pretty one sided.  After they hit 6 I couldn't do anything to them."  (Top lane)  "The enemy jungle ganked early and got my lane opponent ahead.  Nothing I can do."  (Jungle)  "They kept invading and I couldn't fight them."  While players in the lower ELO might know what happened they might not know how it happened and what they can do to prevent it or recover from it.  I suffer from this a lot as well and while a 5v5 in-house might give us the opportunity to talk about how to fix it, it relies on someone knowing exactly how to go about doing that.

I think that these answers are generally just not good analysis. If you lost because you couldn't CS well, even though the lane was even, etc. then you found where you are weak and can improve. I don't mind this answer much, because you found something you could work on. If the bottom lane poked you out, was it a draft problem and you picked a losing matchup? Did you not play aggressive enough with a strong all-in bottom lane? Saying 'we got poked out' doesn't explain why you got poked out. If you lost mid post-6 were you able to stay even on farm? Could you support jungle ganks? Could you at least get vision on your lane opponent so they cannot snowball other lanes? Could your jungler not help you? Again, saying 'I lost post-6' is saying what happened, and not explaining what you tried to do about it. Early jungle gank set you behind? Why did that happen? Were you pushed up too far? Did the enemy jungle come from an unexpected angle? Did you not place a ward? What will you try to do about it if you had to run the matchup again? In the jungle, if you are continually getting invaded, is it because your laners have no priority? Is that a draft problem or is your team just simply not pushing up? Are you picking a fight with the enemy jungler just because they showed up, not waiting for your team to collapse?

If you can't answer why something happened, you can at least try to guess, or guess what you can try to do about it. Failing that, you can ask another player what they would do. When you can talk with your opponents, they can often tell you what they have seen work against their champion, especially if they are very familiar with their champion. This is something lost playing normals. A lot of the game is educated guessing on how to play a matchup, and learning from the results of your guess.

20 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

You might say, "Well we can sit and watch replays.  Go over what happened, how it happened, what lead up to it and what you can do to be prepared for it in the future."  This is an amazing tool to utilize.  I know you have offered to go over replays many times with people.  How many have taken advantage of that offer?  Would it be realistic for us to do 1 game on Thursday night and after sit in a room where we go over the replay for each individual player/role?  How long would we allot for something like that?  Would having a follow up event be something to consider?  Thursday nights be our LoL event, 2 games played and talked about shortly after the games and then on another night allot for 1 hour for replay analysis where we have the replays from the Thursday night reviewed and gone over in detail?

Shoutout to @MadCast: StargazerLilli who took me up on at least a quick look-over of one of the League of Learning games.

I don't think immediately going over the game is the best idea. The amount you can get out of a game will vary greatly, sometimes it might only be 5-10 minutes if the game was one-sided, and sometimes you can spend an hour or more to determine what happened in each lane, what led to each teamfight, etc. I've considered just following up a game by analyzing and providing feedback for everyone via the forums. While I like the idea of doing a follow up event, realistically, how many people would actually be able to make it. It's primarily useful for people who were attending League of Learning, needs the same people to show up at a different time on a different day. I just can't see it working out.

I could still probably review the normal games that get played if people are interested in that.

20 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

One thing I have heard repeatedly is that the pick ban phase has gotten to the point that its the same thing every week.  I have heard this from the higher ELO as well as the lower ELO.  People feel they have to ban something or they just get walked all over in game regardless if they are against that matchup or not.  I have been operating on this event being a learning experience for players and thus have been asking them to sideline their main champions for the first game.  I do not agree that you are handicapping yourself by playing a new champion.  Yes, you will not have the level of comfort and skill you do with your main but does that mean you should never play anything other than your main champion?  And I'm only asking you to not pick your main.  Most people have 3-5 champions they play in a particular role.  

I think there's truth to the ban phase being the same, but we end up with different team comps every week in the higher ELO. There's enough bans to keep people off their absolute best champs if that's needed, but not really enough to fully ban someone out without letting anyone else get their absolute best champ. There are things you can do to mitigate a strong player on a champ. Playing tanks top lane like Sion or Maokai generally limit how much can be done. Passive farming midlaners with strong waveclear are difficult to push off. Disengage heavy supports and mobile ADCs can prevent your lane from falling too far behind. Safe pushing lanes can neuter the ability of a jungler to invade. It's not really about only picking your main so much as not making everyone play in unfamiliar matchups. You don't learn a lot when neither player knows how a trade is supposed to go, and both people play it incorrectly.

20 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

The reason that we have been playing one game off of your main champs is because of balance issues.  When people end up banning 4 junglers because they don't want to see @MadCast: Lunalesk play Amumu, Warwick, Jax or Sej in almost every game he has been a part of, I consider this an issue because it doesn't allow for other players to be banned out because one person is pulling all the bans.  I feel like @MadCast: Baal suffers from this too and I believe this is something you deal with constantly as well.  I understand you might have a much deeper champion pool than the other two mentioned though.

If it is actually the case where Luna and Baal are so game warping on any of their top 3 champions compared with every single other player in the game, then there is a balance issue. That said, I doubt that is the case. When you play, I think you see Morgana banned against you the vast majority of the time, even if you are on the same team as Baal and Luna. People ban Baal and Luna because they don't know of better uses of the bans, not because it's impossible to deal with them on those champions. There are ways to fight Baal's split pushers, whether it be picking a champion with strong wave clear, a jungler with long range gank pressure, or enough hard engage to force fights. People ban danyo's Darius all the time too.

20 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

I would like to point out that every game before we start the match I ask the lower ELO players if there are any problems with the team matchups.

Yeah, unfortunately it's the case in both groups where everyone has comments about how bad the balance was after the game finishes. Likely because no one wants to be the guy who claims the teams aren't even when they are close. Not much that can be done, but when there's a lot of uneven players, nailing down roles and having people follow those roles is pretty important.

20 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

For example take you, Namflow and Maesen.  Now I might be able to match up any two of you into a lane and be alright but what about who has to face up with the other plat player?  My point in this is I'm hoping that by changing this to a 5 man pre-made going into a normal matchup that we can better control our side of the matchup.

I think the solution here is to have a pair off + an off role vs a decent player (could even have all 3 off role). Could have me against Namflow top, and then Maesen on a non-jungle role. It's not like any of us are as dominant on roles we don't play as much. We might have our pocket pick (I can play a decent Vlad mid, Namflow's Jhin bot is fine too (can't compliment him or his head might explode)), but beyond that, there are not too many true fill players in MadCast in the plat+ group. Doing this still means that the plat+ players are tryharding and learning, but they are not as effective as they would be in other roles.

 

 

Edited by MadCast: Pushover

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I'm ok with the new changes to league of learning it just doesn't really feel like league of learning anymore which is ok, but I feel like the old format offered a lot better feedback at the end of the game especially for laning phase because you get perspective from both sides and its usually from people have been paying a lot more attention to you play than just from the jungler for example who only looks at you for like 20% of the time. so I think the new format is ok and has some positives to it but I would still like to see the old format played maybe on rotation or something.

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Having played 1 game so far, I can't say it was the best game. It does narrow the range of skill to about 3 divisions, compared with the 4-5 we get in mixed ELO inhouses, but the teams were not particularly fair (2 plats/3 golds vs 2 silvers, 2 golds, and 1 plat) and the game was quite one-sided (29-5, game ended in 21 minutes after all the enemy lanes lost and their jungler fell behind). Discussion on the topic was pretty minimal (talked about warding to avoid the inevitable level 2 jungle Twitch gank, and then Twitch started blue??). Wasn't much to be gleaned from that game that I could not already get from playing a normal (ran an experimental jungle path on Hecarim to rush level 6, got it at 7:00 from getting 2 crabs. Would have been ~7:30 off 1 crab or ~7:45 off 0. Should be doable on most AoE clear champs like Shyvana, Karthus, Kayn, etc).

Talking with @MadCast: Namflow after the game, he brought up a point I didn't really think about. I think some people view League of Learning as a place to learn new champions and such, but to make the most of the 5v5 inhouse format, the focus should be on having a deep dive on mechanics, teamwork, and communication rather than learning a champion. The normal game format is better than inhouses for learning new champions/roles, but is worse for reviewing your personal mechanics, and generally has less pressure on your teamwork and communication abilities.

Also, this may sound elitist/gatekeeping, but I think League of Learning inhouses is not the best place to hop back into League if you don't already play it a decent amount. It ends up being a fairly competitive environment, so if you are rusty, you are re-learning the game while other people are focusing on improving their mechanics.

 

I did think that the idea of having most weeks be inhouses, and 1 week per month as normals was not a bad way to go about doing League of Learning.

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Now that it's been 2 months, I think I would stand by my position that inhouses are generally better for learning than normals. When we played normals, it felt more like we were playing for fun, there was no real postgame analysis, almost everyone just played their normal stuff.

On another note, last week we had an amazing 2nd game that was very close and well played by everyone. I felt like we could have spent at least an hour dissecting that game, and it would have been helpful for all involved. When playing inhouse games, I feel like 10% of the games are incredibly close and well played by everyone, whereas in normals I find that maybe 1 in 100 games is actually like that. I think it would make sense to have another session, or just spend a long time going over a particularly close game should one occur in League of Learning. Doing extra analysis weekly doesn't seem like the best use of time when some League of Learning games turn into stomps.

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I agree with Push, that said, I still like the idea of 3 week in house, 1 week norms, but I think it would be nice if when we do the 1 week norms, we had 1-2 people speccing the game and break it down afterwards. I'd be glad to sit and not play to help with that if needed.

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I'm sorry for not responding in here with any updates to the format or responses to your comments.  I have been for the most part going over them in the League of Learning into I do at the start of the event.  I appreciate your feedback and as @MadCast: Pushover stated above the format of pure inhouse will generally be better for actually learning and imporving the mechanics of a person but I feel that without being able to practice them in real situations against a group of people you are unfamiliar with the mechanics don't really get driven home as hard.  With that 3 weeks of inhouse and 1 week of normal to apply what we went over that month has been mostly successful and will be a rotation that I will follow for the event going forward.  I know I have also talked to @MadCast: Namflow as well as @MadCast: Dez, to name a few, about their thoughts on the format as well as many others.  I appreciate everyone sticking with the event through some of the growing pains and I know there are always way to improve on things so I'd like to ask you to keep bringing your feedback to this thread or to me specifically so we can make the event better and bring more people to the community.  I agree that having a person to spectate for each game would be ideal but that can't always be achieved.  I will always volunteer to sit out and spectate if we have overflow as well as a bench if something happens to someone.  I know there are a few others that do the same and I thank you for that.  To address the games that turn into stomps, I know this is very frustrating for both sides as neither side really gets anything out of the game at that point.  I'm always open to hear suggestions about ways to balance teams.  If that means having permanent captains for teams (provided they can show up consistantly and are willing to lead a team of inhouse) where we can basically setup teams where there will be specific people always together / always against each other for the sake of balance then that is something we can try to figure out.  Unfortunatly its rather difficult to balance well when we are rotating people in and/or have new players of varying skill levels join in for the event.  Its amazing to have a solid core group of people that tend to show up on a regular basis.  I'd love to find a way to use that to our advantage so games are less of a stomp and more of a fight to the bitter end.

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