MadCast: Support Welfare

League of Learning is changing a bit (effective 4-25-2019 event)

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Greetings ladies and gentlemen!  This has been something I've been thinking about for a while and just haven't been able to pin down what I wanted to do.  I have finally come up with something that I believe will help the event pick up some more interest as well as help MadCast more as a recruitment tool.  I am going to change up the format that we use for our League of Learning event.  The goal of this will be to address some of the issues that we constantly struggle with (balance, attendance,  etc.) and just give the event a makeover in general.  I have been using @MadCast: doublestufforeo as a sounding board for some of these ideas so I want to thank him for that.  It has been very helpful.  Please note that these changes will not take effect this week and will be implemented 4-26-2019.

Now on to the changes for League of Learning.  

First off, this will become a public event.  By that I mean instead of an in-house 5v5 with a higher ELO and a lower ELO we will now by going with 5 man teams that will be queuing up for normal games after I give my event into to everyone.  We will break these groups up into each division (iron, bronze, silver, etc.) with some overlap obviously as we might not have 5 iron players or we might have 8 silver players.  In this case we will have a little bit of overlap.  The intent behind this change is to take advantage of Riot's built in rank system.  I know there will still be a few issues with this as MMR will not always accurately reflect a person's skill but I am convinced that it will be a good move none-the-less.  This will give us the benefit of having a more balanced group as everyone in your group will be around your ranking and the enemy team should be as well.  We will still have topics of focus each week that we will work on as a group.  The difference will be you are not facing MadCast members who you have played with over and over.  You will have to adapt to what you see the enemy picking or banning (which means your favorite champion might not be perma-banned.  R.I.P. Morgana).  This also means you will not face the same opponents every game, every week.  With this being opened up to the general League of Legends populous I will be more strict with rules and guidelines.  This means nothing negative in /all chat.  No taunting, no bragging, no condescension.  This is us representing the MadCast community in actual games and everyone will be expected to adhere to the MadCast CoC.  Any violation will be punishable according to MadCast policy.  Any violations need to be brought to me so that they can be handled.

 

          Rules for the League of Learning event

1.  You are expected to follow MadCast's CoC and all MadCast Event policies will still be enforced.  If you can't do this you will be removed.

2.  Be on time (5 minutes before the start of the event) or you won’t be playing that night.  If you can't make the first game that’s fine but don't come in late expecting that you have a spot for that game.

3.  I ask that you bring a positive attitude to the event.  If you have had a rough day and don't think you are in the mindset to play calmly then step up and sit out.  You can always spectate and give advice to your fellow gamers.

4.  Spots are “first come, first served”.  If we have new people to the event show up before you they get the spot.  We will rotate people in as needed but with the new format of 5 mans I see this being less of an issue.

 

          Procedure for the event (general flow)

Event prep to be done (forum thread, discord channels, announcement in discord)

The new channel layout will look something like:  LoL 1, LoL 2, LoL 3, LoL 4, etc. to accommodate the new 5 man format.

I will start forming the lobby 20-30 minutes before the event.  You do not have to join that early.  This is simply me getting ready for the event and so I'm around if anyone has questions.  You will be required to be there 5 minutes early (to anyone who is willing to help me get lobbies set up I'd appreciate it if you could be around 10 minutes early) so we can go through the topic of the week and start getting things organized.

I will probably change the password from game to game to annoy @MadCast: Baal. (because its fun)

5 minutes to the start of the event I will be going over everything people need to know about the event (topic, forming groups, introduce candidates, etc.)  I will also be asking for a "captain" of sorts for each 5 man group that will be responsible for posting a quick into in /all chat and the post game lobby.  They get to be my eyes and ears in each game as I can't be everywhere at once.

The event starts at 9pm EST which means people should be in lobbies and queuing up at 9:05pm.  Game length will vary but we will have a 10 minute gap between each game where you can get up move around, go to the bathroom, get a drink, while we are going through our game rundown.  The rundown will be lead by the "captain" mentioned above from each team.  Remember to keep the topic as the focus of the discussion.

 

With that general flow outlined I have a rough post template for the intro /all chat post and the post game lobby post.  (this is open to change if you have any suggestions)

/all chat - "We are MadCast Gaming.  Check us out at madcastgaming.com and join our League of Learning event every Thursday 9pm EST."

Post game lobby - "Greetings LoL players!  We are a premade 5 man from the MadCast Gaming community.  This is our weekly League of Learning event where we work on our mechanics in a group setting and have fun.  If you are interested in League of most any group game (online and off) we would be happy to have you stop by and check out our website (https://www.madcastgaming.com/) or stop in our Discord (https://discord.gg/3Zk6h92) to check us out. "

Unfortunately Riot has disabled copy/paste while in game for spam purposes.  I do believe that you can still copy/paste in the post game lobby though.  

 

I'm also planning on making a list of topics that we will rotate through (like 10+ topics) and will be happy to add more if anyone has any suggestions for topics.  I'm also open to the idea of bringing back multiple week topics where we work on the same mechanic over multiple weeks and build on that by adding another skill to focus on that complements the previous one.  If you have any suggestions on topics specifically please head to the League of Learning Feedback thread and post them there.  For any suggestions regarding the new format for League of Learning please post them here or message me directly.

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I am not a fan of this change. There's a number of reasons why I think 5v5 custom games are more beneficial than just playing a normal game. I'll try to outline the main points of why I think it is the case compared to queuing normal games:

  1. Your opponents can give you feedback on what you are doing wrong in the matchup. I may be proved wrong, but I doubt many opponents will be hanging around postgame to talk about what your mistakes in lane were. Some excellent games occur when players are on familiar champions in the lane, and are able to hash out how the matchup works by talking through it. For example, I had a good lane against @MadCast: Namflow ~3 weeks ago when he was playing Swain top into my Aatrox. We were able to work out who wins trades, power spikes, taking advantage of cooldowns, etc. I've had some great games and discussions after playing against @MadCast: kyro when I support. I highly doubt I will be able to have a similar discussions playing normals.
  2. You are a group of 5 up against another group of 5. This means that both teams theoretically have access to the same communication avenues. A 5 man normal/flex queue is not guaranteed to run into another 5-man queue, meaning your team might simply have an advantage from communication. Tight shotcalling and communication provides a massive advantage in League. I know that me and several others have complained when playing alongside someone without a mic. You have to play differently when the other team communicates and executes calls well.
  3. The fact that people do ban your favorite champ on occasion means that you will end up on different picks. I suspect that we will see players playing similar picks 2 games in a row, unless a ban forces that to change. People in normals are generally not picking to win, they are picking to have fun. Handicapping yourself by playing unfamiliar champions is not a good way to improve at the game (more on that below).

That said, I feel like the quality of games recent weeks has been lacking. I'll outline my opinion of why it has been the case:

  1. Mixed ELOs are not the best for learning. This one can't really be solved unless we get more people, but it still definitely affects the quality of games. I get that you are trying to solve this since we seem to get ~15-20 people available most weeks.
  2. Playing games without tryharding with your main champions is not as valuable for improving. When everyone is trying new stuff, there is a wide range of skill that becomes impossible to balance, especially when there are only 10 participants in League of Learning. This leads to one-sided games where no one learns anything. Additionally, if you are practicing a pocket pick for specific matchups, that's one thing, but being forced to play something you are less familiar with against someone else who is unfamiliar with their champion means that no one is learning much in the first place. Both people don't know the limits, power spikes, lane matchups, etc of their champions. If you are looking to climb or get better in general in League, you should generally play champions you are familiar with. This is because you can focus more on the general league skills such as trading, teamfighting, positioning, etc, without worrying so much about things like mechanically playing your champion correctly, or building the correct items. This is incredibly common advice when people ask how they can get better at League.
  3. There has been very little postgame review recently. At some point we switched from focusing on getting good postgame breakdowns as the primary focus to getting 2 5v5 games in before 11 PM EST. I get that people want to be in bed, but there should be more focus on reviewing games again. I think you learn more by properly reviewing 1 game than by playing 2. Additionally, due to rushing to start the game, I've felt like the teams had some pretty major balancing issues. Particularly in mixed ELO games, lane matchups should at least be moderately even, otherwise the game tends to turn into 'which lane that stomped is better than the other lane that stomped?' This again, offers very little learning value beyond the first 15 minutes of laning or so. This can probably be partly attributed to (2), since if no one knows their champion, it's really hard to offer meaningful feedback. Who is supposed to win a trade in top lane at level 3? Can your jungler actually contest the scuttle?

 

Another nice thing is that you just don't get to do 5v5 custom games too often. Getting 5 people into a normal game is not difficult in MadCast, getting 10 together to play a custom on SR is much harder. It's also exposure to a different format, since Tournament Draft plays somewhat different from Draft Mode due to how the draft is organized. It's a mode you don't get to play outside of a league/tournament (such as MadCast League or the upcoming tournament), or if Crash Clash ever gets implemented. The 5v5 higher ELO games have generally been of very good quality, and focus on skills you don't get to practice when you just queue for a normal game as 5 or play solo queue.

 

I've mentioned it before, but reviewing replays would be beneficial to everyone. Having another set of eyes who was not participating in your lane is quite beneficial, since they can point out opportunities or inefficiencies that you may have missed, especially if they also are familiar with playing your champion.

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1 hour ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

Your opponents can give you feedback on what you are doing wrong in the matchup. I may be proved wrong, but I doubt many opponents will be hanging around postgame to talk about what your mistakes in lane were. Some excellent games occur when players are on familiar champions in the lane, and are able to hash out how the matchup works by talking through it.

I understand and agree that this is very valuable to be able to do in a matchup.  I usually try to talk to the enemy team support before the matches start up to see if they want me to play something specific so they can practice a matchup or to learn to play against an unfavorable matchup.  You are absolutely right in that post game lobby is not going to be much help for going over lanes (in this new format) and what you did good or didn't do well.  While I imagine that the higher ELO games have a much more involved breakdown at the end of a match due to the general knowledge about mechanics, game play, matchups, etc.   The fact is that the lower ELO conversations for lanes typically goes something like this, (bot lane) "The enemy ADC was just much better at CSing than I was.  I need to work more on my CS." or "The enemy bot lane just poked us out and we couldn't even touch the wave.".  (Mid lane) "The matchup was pretty one sided.  After they hit 6 I couldn't do anything to them."  (Top lane)  "The enemy jungle ganked early and got my lane opponent ahead.  Nothing I can do."  (Jungle)  "They kept invading and I couldn't fight them."  While players in the lower ELO might know what happened they might not know how it happened and what they can do to prevent it or recover from it.  I suffer from this a lot as well and while a 5v5 in-house might give us the opportunity to talk about how to fix it, it relies on someone knowing exactly how to go about doing that.  I, unfortunately, am unequipped to give those answers.  That's why I'm still in the lower half of the ELO.

You might say, "Well we can sit and watch replays.  Go over what happened, how it happened, what lead up to it and what you can do to be prepared for it in the future."  This is an amazing tool to utilize.  I know you have offered to go over replays many times with people.  How many have taken advantage of that offer?  Would it be realistic for us to do 1 game on Thursday night and after sit in a room where we go over the replay for each individual player/role?  How long would we allot for something like that?  Would having a follow up event be something to consider?  Thursday nights be our LoL event, 2 games played and talked about shortly after the games and then on another night allot for 1 hour for replay analysis where we have the replays from the Thursday night reviewed and gone over in detail?

 

1 hour ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

You are a group of 5 up against another group of 5. This means that both teams theoretically have access to the same communication avenues. A 5 man normal/flex queue is not guaranteed to run into another 5-man queue, meaning your team might simply have an advantage from communication. Tight shotcalling and communication provides a massive advantage in League. I know that me and several others have complained when playing alongside someone without a mic. You have to play differently when the other team communicates and executes calls well.

Yes, this is something that will come up in games.  In our format the way it is now, 5v5, we are leveling that advantage by making sure all participating have access to that resource.  Not everyone is willing to jump into a voice comm with people in normal games.  In our League of Learning event we do require you at least be in discord so you can hear call outs.  While this might create an advantage I would argue that its an advantage we have earned by putting forth the effort to get together and be in discord so we can all communicate (a huge topic we have repeated multiple times as a topic for League of Learning).  The only advantage I see with this is that we ARE taking advantage of being in a voice comm while the enemy team might not be.  That isn't to say we always use it.  If you are getting beat pretty hard you might stop being as communicative or if you are new to the event you might not be as comfortable about chiming in on the conversation.  So while we do "theoretically have access to the same communication avenues", that doesn't mean everyone will take advantage of them.  I have had many conversations with participants in LoL where I have expressed the need for them to communicate more openly.  My point is, horse to water and all.

 

1 hour ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

The fact that people do ban your favorite champ on occasion means that you will end up on different picks. I suspect that we will see players playing similar picks 2 games in a row, unless a ban forces that to change. People in normals are generally not picking to win, they are picking to have fun. Handicapping yourself by playing unfamiliar champions is not a good way to improve at the game (more on that below).

One thing I have heard repeatedly is that the pick ban phase has gotten to the point that its the same thing every week.  I have heard this from the higher ELO as well as the lower ELO.  People feel they have to ban something or they just get walked all over in game regardless if they are against that matchup or not.  I have been operating on this event being a learning experience for players and thus have been asking them to sideline their main champions for the first game.  I do not agree that you are handicapping yourself by playing a new champion.  Yes, you will not have the level of comfort and skill you do with your main but does that mean you should never play anything other than your main champion?  And I'm only asking you to not pick your main.  Most people have 3-5 champions they play in a particular role.  

1 hour ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

Playing games without tryharding with your main champions is not as valuable for improving. When everyone is trying new stuff, there is a wide range of skill that becomes impossible to balance, especially when there are only 10 participants in League of Learning. This leads to one-sided games where no one learns anything.

The reason that we have been playing one game off of your main champs is because of balance issues.  When people end up banning 4 junglers because they don't want to see @MadCast: Lunalesk play Amumu, Warwick, Jax or Sej in almost every game he has been a part of, I consider this an issue because it doesn't allow for other players to be banned out because one person is pulling all the bans.  I feel like @MadCast: Baal suffers from this too and I believe this is something you deal with constantly as well.  I understand you might have a much deeper champion pool than the other two mentioned though.

2 hours ago, MadCast: Pushover said:

There has been very little postgame review recently. At some point we switched from focusing on getting good postgame breakdowns as the primary focus to getting 2 5v5 games in before 11 PM EST. I get that people want to be in bed, but there should be more focus on reviewing games again. I think you learn more by properly reviewing 1 game than by playing 2. Additionally, due to rushing to start the game, I've felt like the teams had some pretty major balancing issues. Particularly in mixed ELO games, lane matchups should at least be moderately even, otherwise the game tends to turn into 'which lane that stomped is better than the other lane that stomped?'

The post game reviews have been rather short and less in depth as of late.  I agree with you there.  This is due to the many people that have voice the opinion that we take too long to get into game and that every lane breakdown is the same.  If people are more interested in a heavier focus on the review at the end of the game then I will take that into consideration but as of right now you are the only one that has brought this up to me.  As to the point you made about having major balancing issues when lane matchups aren't somewhat even in rank I would like to point out that every game before we start the match I ask the lower ELO players if there are any problems with the team matchups.  When we are forced into having only one group and have both high ELO and low ELO playing together its not something I can reasonably balance.  Its one of the reasons that lead to me looking at this premade into normal games format.  Too often when we end up merging the ELOs its because most of the higher ELO players don't show up.  So now we have 3 higher ELO players and maybe 9 lower ELO players.  I will always sit out in this situation and usually its Baal that is the other person to sit out so we can get everyone into the game.  How am I supposed to balance 2 Plats and 1 Diamond between 2 teams?  Especially when we have people that don't matchup in roles.  Yes, they can probably fill in in a role but we still run into the issue of they are playing in an off role against  someone in their main role (for the higher ELO lane matchups) and we are still left with the odd higher ELO left out.  Where do I put them where they are not likely to just run over their matchup opponent?  For example take you, Namflow and Maesen.  Now I might be able to match up any two of you into a lane and be alright but what about who has to face up with the other plat player?  My point in this is I'm hoping that by changing this to a 5 man pre-made going into a normal matchup that we can better control our side of the matchup.  In the end we will still be able to give a breakdown on what we did well in lane or what we got destroyed by (provided we can identify those points), we will theoretically have a more even matchup as far as MMR, we will gain the opportunity to recruit people for the event by promoting MadCast in matches and while change can be scary its needed if we want to improve on the event as well as improve game play.  You are likely to know what you are getting when facing another MadCast member but you are forced to adapt when you run into someone you know nothing about.

 

Disclaimer:  This is all from the perspective of a lower ELO player so many of the changes have that in mind.  I know that not everyone will be happy with the changes made to the event but if you give it a chance we can find what we like and get rid of what we don't.  I do appreciate you bringing all of this up to be addressed.  I will be rolling out these changes on the 26th and am open to suggestions about what to chance and how to change them but without feedback I won't know what works and what doesn't.  I also implore any and everyone to bring up any issues they have with the event (how it's run, how groups are formed, the topics we cover, how we discuss the matches, etc.) in the League of Learning Feedback thread.  This is how we know what is working and what isn't.  Its your voice in making changes to the event.

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I'm copying what @MadCast: Pushover posted in the League of Learning Feedback thread here because while it is feedback on the event its specific to this topic and this way all the conversation is in one place.  All of the following is a direct copy from Pushover's post in that thread.

 

  21 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

 The fact is that the lower ELO conversations for lanes typically goes something like this, (bot lane) "The enemy ADC was just much better at CSing than I was.  I need to work more on my CS." or "The enemy bot lane just poked us out and we couldn't even touch the wave.".  (Mid lane) "The matchup was pretty one sided.  After they hit 6 I couldn't do anything to them."  (Top lane)  "The enemy jungle ganked early and got my lane opponent ahead.  Nothing I can do."  (Jungle)  "They kept invading and I couldn't fight them."  While players in the lower ELO might know what happened they might not know how it happened and what they can do to prevent it or recover from it.  I suffer from this a lot as well and while a 5v5 in-house might give us the opportunity to talk about how to fix it, it relies on someone knowing exactly how to go about doing that.

I think that these answers are generally just not good analysis. If you lost because you couldn't CS well, even though the lane was even, etc. then you found where you are weak and can improve. I don't mind this answer much, because you found something you could work on. If the bottom lane poked you out, was it a draft problem and you picked a losing matchup? Did you not play aggressive enough with a strong all-in bottom lane? Saying 'we got poked out' doesn't explain why you got poked out. If you lost mid post-6 were you able to stay even on farm? Could you support jungle ganks? Could you at least get vision on your lane opponent so they cannot snowball other lanes? Could your jungler not help you? Again, saying 'I lost post-6' is saying what happened, and not explaining what you tried to do about it. Early jungle gank set you behind? Why did that happen? Were you pushed up too far? Did the enemy jungle come from an unexpected angle? Did you not place a ward? What will you try to do about it if you had to run the matchup again? In the jungle, if you are continually getting invaded, is it because your laners have no priority? Is that a draft problem or is your team just simply not pushing up? Are you picking a fight with the enemy jungler just because they showed up, not waiting for your team to collapse?

If you can't answer why something happened, you can at least try to guess, or guess what you can try to do about it. Failing that, you can ask another player what they would do. When you can talk with your opponents, they can often tell you what they have seen work against their champion, especially if they are very familiar with their champion. This is something lost playing normals. A lot of the game is educated guessing on how to play a matchup, and learning from the results of your guess.

  21 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

You might say, "Well we can sit and watch replays.  Go over what happened, how it happened, what lead up to it and what you can do to be prepared for it in the future."  This is an amazing tool to utilize.  I know you have offered to go over replays many times with people.  How many have taken advantage of that offer?  Would it be realistic for us to do 1 game on Thursday night and after sit in a room where we go over the replay for each individual player/role?  How long would we allot for something like that?  Would having a follow up event be something to consider?  Thursday nights be our LoL event, 2 games played and talked about shortly after the games and then on another night allot for 1 hour for replay analysis where we have the replays from the Thursday night reviewed and gone over in detail?

Shoutout to @MadCast: StargazerLilli who took me up on at least a quick look-over of one of the League of Learning games.

I don't think immediately going over the game is the best idea. The amount you can get out of a game will vary greatly, sometimes it might only be 5-10 minutes if the game was one-sided, and sometimes you can spend an hour or more to determine what happened in each lane, what led to each teamfight, etc. I've considered just following up a game by analyzing and providing feedback for everyone via the forums. While I like the idea of doing a follow up event, realistically, how many people would actually be able to make it. It's primarily useful for people who were attending League of Learning, needs the same people to show up at a different time on a different day. I just can't see it working out.

I could still probably review the normal games that get played if people are interested in that.

  21 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

One thing I have heard repeatedly is that the pick ban phase has gotten to the point that its the same thing every week.  I have heard this from the higher ELO as well as the lower ELO.  People feel they have to ban something or they just get walked all over in game regardless if they are against that matchup or not.  I have been operating on this event being a learning experience for players and thus have been asking them to sideline their main champions for the first game.  I do not agree that you are handicapping yourself by playing a new champion.  Yes, you will not have the level of comfort and skill you do with your main but does that mean you should never play anything other than your main champion?  And I'm only asking you to not pick your main.  Most people have 3-5 champions they play in a particular role.  

I think there's truth to the ban phase being the same, but we end up with different team comps every week in the higher ELO. There's enough bans to keep people off their absolute best champs if that's needed, but not really enough to fully ban someone out without letting anyone else get their absolute best champ. There are things you can do to mitigate a strong player on a champ. Playing tanks top lane like Sion or Maokai generally limit how much can be done. Passive farming midlaners with strong waveclear are difficult to push off. Disengage heavy supports and mobile ADCs can prevent your lane from falling too far behind. Safe pushing lanes can neuter the ability of a jungler to invade. It's not really about only picking your main so much as not making everyone play in unfamiliar matchups. You don't learn a lot when neither player knows how a trade is supposed to go, and both people play it incorrectly.

  21 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

The reason that we have been playing one game off of your main champs is because of balance issues.  When people end up banning 4 junglers because they don't want to see @MadCast: Lunalesk play Amumu, Warwick, Jax or Sej in almost every game he has been a part of, I consider this an issue because it doesn't allow for other players to be banned out because one person is pulling all the bans.  I feel like @MadCast: Baal suffers from this too and I believe this is something you deal with constantly as well.  I understand you might have a much deeper champion pool than the other two mentioned though.

If it is actually the case where Luna and Baal are so game warping on any of their top 3 champions compared with every single other player in the game, then there is a balance issue. That said, I doubt that is the case. When you play, I think you see Morgana banned against you the vast majority of the time, even if you are on the same team as Baal and Luna. People ban Baal and Luna because they don't know of better uses of the bans, not because it's impossible to deal with them on those champions. There are ways to fight Baal's split pushers, whether it be picking a champion with strong wave clear, a jungler with long range gank pressure, or enough hard engage to force fights. People ban danyo's Darius all the time too.

  21 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

I would like to point out that every game before we start the match I ask the lower ELO players if there are any problems with the team matchups.

Yeah, unfortunately it's the case in both groups where everyone has comments about how bad the balance was after the game finishes. Likely because no one wants to be the guy who claims the teams aren't even when they are close. Not much that can be done, but when there's a lot of uneven players, nailing down roles and having people follow those roles is pretty important.

  21 hours ago, MadCast: Support Welfare said:

For example take you, Namflow and Maesen.  Now I might be able to match up any two of you into a lane and be alright but what about who has to face up with the other plat player?  My point in this is I'm hoping that by changing this to a 5 man pre-made going into a normal matchup that we can better control our side of the matchup.

I think the solution here is to have a pair off + an off role vs a decent player (could even have all 3 off role). Could have me against Namflow top, and then Maesen on a non-jungle role. It's not like any of us are as dominant on roles we don't play as much. We might have our pocket pick (I can play a decent Vlad mid, Namflow's Jhin bot is fine too (can't compliment him or his head might explode)), but beyond that, there are not too many true fill players in MadCast in the plat+ group. Doing this still means that the plat+ players are tryharding and learning, but they are not as effective as they would be in other roles.

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I like that you are actively trying to find ways to improve on MadCast's most popular League event... it's a pretty ballsy change. Maybe my opinion won't mean much here since I haven't been to League of Learning in probably a month or so and I haven't ever participated in a League of Learning where there wasn't a high elo group and a low elo group, but I think most people like League of Learning for the inhouse aspect. I can go and queue up a norm any day of the week with a few friends. I don't understand why this is different (apart from the recruiting aspect) and how I seriously expect this to improve gameplay without putting more time into reviewing replays since I won't have the feedback from my opponents. Maybe some people would enjoy setting aside additional time to review replays of their gameplay with someone else, but I would think there are a lot who would not.

No one asked me, but I found that a beneficial aspect of climbing and getting better was being able to see another person's perspective on something.

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@MadCast: Pushover and for anyone who wants to weigh in on this topic, I'm sorry for the disconnect here.  I re-posted the comment Pushover made on the League of Learning feedback thread here because its relevant to this conversation.  While I'm in the process of changing the format of League of Learning I'd like people to use this thread as a way to voice their opinions on the change.  After the changes go into affect I'd like to have people give any feedback about having participated in the event where those changes were live, in the League of Learning feedback thread.  I apologize for not making that more clear.

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I think the old format is good. The teams should not be balanced as much in my opinion. It would be nice for both a low and a high elo team. If the team that was mostly high elo asked their lane counterparts if there was something they wanted to practice or practice against it would be better for the players. I feel as it is now a lot of players that should be in gold and up are not playing ranked so they can go into the lower elo and stomp. If we focused on the players learning instead of balance the high elo players could take it easier on low elo and low elo would have the ability to experiment more. This with the removal of the aram could free up time to do a high elo vod review of the game. The match making riot has right now is wonky at best. I understand that it may be boring for high elo due to the pace that they are forced to play at, but as the community gets better everyone will be looking to close games faster. I also know that high elo will not be punished nearly as much and may unconsciously punish even the smallest mistake but that will be what pushes the lower player to improve. I am not implying that high elo sit on their thumbs and not win. The high elo team should be talking about what all of them notice in all lanes. The excuse that someone was pushed up to far and thats why they died is lame and unimaginative. It could be that they had jung close but the jung went for scuttle and not reinforced their call. some high elo jung will drop what they are doing to aid in the skirmish but a majority of the time when I go back to other elos the jung will only focus on one thing at a time and not what the team needs to succeed even if they are spitting distance from the fight. I understand that my post is a bit on the long side, but thank you for reading it.


TLDR: I think stack the teams high vs low and the high elo focusing on helping low elo grow.

 

Revision 1: May be a buddy system for reviews?

Edited by MadCast: Exgameplayer

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I like the change in the short term. I think that a little variety is always nice and I think that custom 5v5s and 5v5 norms both offer different ways to review your gameplay. Not knowing your oponents before the game starts means you have to be able to adapt in the game which is a useful skill. I think as long as we're open to switching back to 5v5 customs if that's what people want is good but I also want to say that I am often available on some league of learning nights but if I see low numbers I won't come in because I don't want to unbalance teams just by being there. I know it's not fun getting smashed and I don't want to make league of learning a negative experience for someone. I just would like if we had a few ground rules in terms of how we review our games doing 5v5s on the ladder because I want it to be a different experience from playing games with my friends. A system where we talk about our draft and how we plan to approach the game as well as finding a good way to lead review sessions after game. One problem I've felt has always plagued league of learning is that no one is exactly sure what reviewing a game meaningfully in a short amount of time means. Oftentimes people just aren't sure what to focus on after a game ends and it can be hard to remember what the most important aspects of the game were. I know this post got a little rambly and unfocused but I guess the main takeaway would be I am fine with the changes as long as they aren't permanent and that I want there to be a concrete system of what we talk about when we review the game instead of awkwardly wondering what you're supposed to say about a game after it ends.

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We will be going forward with the changes this week in League of Learning.  These changes are still going to need "field testing" and for that I require everyone's feedback on the changes.  What they like, what they don't like, what they would change and how they would change it.  For those suggestions I would now like to point everyone toward the League of Learning Feedback thread.  Any further discussion about the new changes should happen there as at this point the changes will be in affect.  Changes to the event are not set in stone and by that I mean we as a community will want to evaluate what works and what doesn't and make adjustments that make sense.  Again for that I need constructive feedback.  I thank you all for being part of this event and helping this community grow.

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