Sign in to follow this  
MadCast: doublestufforeo

Celebrating Pride

Recommended Posts

In commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Stonewall on the 18th of June, 1969. I would like to bring to this community my version of Pride and what it means. In this thread I welcome open discussion, whether you agree or otherwise. I ask that you please remain civil, but feel free to express your opinions here and ask questions any questions you like.

I'd like to start off with a trip back in time through a  wonderful viDoc provided by NBC "Stonewall 50: The Revolution" a two part series running approx. 22 mins. It covers the history of queer and gay activism dating back to the 1920's.

"I hope that out of all the attention being given to Stonewall on this 50th anniversary, that people learn that Stonewall was not the start of the LGBTQ civil rights movement. That it was a key turning point." - Eric Marcus, author of Making Gay History.

This documentary quickly covers the history of gay rights movements, discrimination, and how we as a people have come to where we are today in the United States. Focusing on history such as drag balls in the 1920's, Pansy raids and the campy repartee, the end of the prohibition era, and further on. 

"The first thing they did in New York, when they legalized the consumption of alcohol again was to establish the state liquor authority, and from the very beginning it said a place could not become disorderly. And they ruled that the simple presence of gender queers or homosexuals made a place disorderly. So the state itself ruled that it could not serve or employee a homosexual or gender queer, or even let them assemble. And so gay bars became illegal. Now there continued to be gay bars, but they were forced to depend upon the criminal syndicates to give them protection from the police, and usually paying off a local officer. This was an effort to push queers out of it ... to make them invisible."

From Wikipedia on the Stonewall Riots:

"Gay Americans in the 1950's and 1960's faced an anti-gay legal system. Illinois decriminalized sodomy in 1961, but at the time of the Stonewall riots every other state criminalized homosexual acts, even between consenting adults acting in private homes. "An adult convicted of the crime of having sex with another consenting adult in the privacy of his or her home could get anywhere from a light fine to five, ten, or twenty years—or even life—in prison. In 1971, twenty states had 'sex psychopath' laws that permitted the detaining of homosexuals for that reason alone. In Pennsylvania and California sex offenders could be committed to a psychiatric institution for life, and [in] seven states they could be castrated." (Carter, p. 15) Through the 1950's and 1960's, castration, emetics, hypnosis, electroshock therapy, and lobotomies were used by psychiatrists to try to "cure" homosexuals.

The last years of the 1960's, however, were very contentious, as many social/political movements were active, including the civil rights movement, the counterculture of the 1960s, and the anti-Vietnam War movement. These influences, along with the liberal environment of Greenwich Village, served as catalysts for the Stonewall riots.

Very few establishments welcomed openly gay people in the 1950's and 1960's. Those that did were often bars, although bar owners and managers were rarely gay. At the time, the Stonewall Inn was owned by the Mafia. It catered to an assortment of patrons and was known to be popular among the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community: drag-queens, transgender people, effeminate young men, butch lesbians, male prostitutes, and homeless youth. Police raids on gay bars were routine in the 1960's, but officers quickly lost control of the situation at the Stonewall Inn. Tensions between New York City Police and gay residents of Greenwich Village erupted into more protests the next evening, and again several nights later. Within weeks, Village residents quickly organized into activist groups to concentrate efforts on establishing places for gays and lesbians to be open about their sexual orientation without fear of being arrested."

The first Gay Pride marches took place one year later on the anniversary of the raid. The month of June was chosen for LGBT Pride Month to commemorate the Stonewall riots. As a result, many pride events are held during this month to recognize the impact LGBT people have had in the world.

If you have the time and want more insight into queer culture I highly recommend watching Paris Is Burning, which you can find on Netflix.

"Paris Is Burning is a 1990 American documentary film directed by Jennie Livingston. Filmed in the mid-to-late 1980s, it chronicles the ball culture of New York City and the African-American, Latino, gay, and transgender communities involved in it. Some critics consider the film to be an invaluable documentary of the end of the "Golden Age" of New York City drag balls, and a thoughtful exploration of race, class, gender, and sexuality in America."

It has a lot of pop culture references that we utilize today in the queer community, you'll notice a lot of them if you're a fan of RuPaul's Drag Race. We coin a lot of our iconic turns and phrases from this era and specifically this viDoc. It's a wonderful representation of the gay community during the trying times of the AIDS crisis, and police brutality. An insight into yesteryear, and a guideline to how we've evolved our culture over the years.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Unfortunately 50 years later and we're still having problems in the queer community. Since Obergefell v. Hodges just two days before the 46th anniversary of the Stonewall riots, we were granted the legalization of same-sex marriage in all fifty states. While this is an amazing accomplishment within the community, we still have an uphill battle to fight. 

Hate crimes against LGBT individuals are still shockingly prevalent across the country. In 2015, nearly one in five hate crimes committed in the US was due to sexual orientation, and another 2% of crimes were committed because of gender identity.

There has been an epidemic of violent crime against transgender individuals, particularly trans women of color, in recent years, including eight who have been killed just this year. Trans women of color are among the most vulnerable minorities in the country, fighting against racism, sexism, transphobia, and, frequently, poverty, putting them at higher risk for violence. Still, 15 states across the country do not include gender or sexual identity under their hate crime laws, another 13 states only cover sexual orientation, and four states have no hate crime laws at all.

Which brings me to this wonderful video created by Jubilee.

 

Adoption non-discrimination laws protect LGBT parents from discrimination by adoption agencies and officials. Some states permit state-licensed child welfare agencies to refuse to place and provide services to children and families, including LGBT people and same-sex couples, if doing so conflicts with their religious beliefs. Only 28% of LGBT population lives in states where state law explicitly prohibits discrimination in adoption based on both sexual orientation and gender identity.

"Families don't have to match. You don't have to look like someone else to love them." — Leigh Anne Tuohy

Conversion therapy laws prohibit licensed mental health practitioners from subjecting LGBT minors to harmful "conversion therapy" practices that attempt to change their sexual orientation or gender identity. These laws do not restrict the practice among religious providers. We still have thirty-six states that have no laws surrounding these practices. There is a wonderful memoir from Garrard Conley titled Boy Erased: A Memoir of Identity, Faith, and Family. Giving an insider's perspective and opinions on the going's on inside these "therapies". It was also popularized as a movie:

In most states, gay and trans individuals can be fired from their job on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity. That means that regardless of job performance or ability, a person can lose their job if their boss finds out about and disagrees with their identity. The lack of protections force individuals to remain in the closet, guarding the secrets of who they are, in order to earn a living. That problem is compounded when LGBT people can be also legally be denied housing based on their identities. But across America, that is the reality for many gay and trans citizens. The US Department of Housing and Urban Development reported in 2013 that same sex couples experience unfavorable treatment in renting homes online, and there are still 28 states where housing discrimination is legal.

LGBT youth are more likely to have health issues because of substance abuse and mental health issues, and trans individuals can face discrimination from health insurers simply for identifying as trans. In 37 states, insurance companies can discriminate based on sexual and gender identity.

Queer individuals face high rates of discrimination in prison, where trans inmates have a particularly grueling history of abuse, including being put in solitary confinement allegedly for their own protection. The US prison population has twice the number of LGBT individuals as the non-incarcerated population (8% vs 4%), suggesting that LGBT individuals are over-represented in jails, and the number is even higher for those in juvenile detention (20%). 

About 40% of homeless youth in America identify as LGBT and often end up on the streets because they are rejected by their family members. There, young gay, lesbian, bi, and trans kids are more likely to face violence, end up in danger or participate in crime, and encounter trauma that can affect their entire lives. A stunning 41% of trans adults have reported attempting suicide, followed by 10% to 20% of LGBT adults, according to The Williams Institute. The rate for the rest of the population hovers around 4%.

America has come a long way in protecting the rights of gay, bi, and trans citizens, but there’s still work to do. This June, let’s remember to start with acceptance.

Edited by MadCast: doublestufforeo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd also like to add to this the abridged story of my coming out. Hopefully shedding some light as to my activism behind this community, and why I do what I do.

It's a bit unprecedented to think that in the time we are we still experience the discrimination within the queer community that we do. Unfortunately that discrimination can come from those that we love the most. I was raised in a family that was devoutly Mormon, and had an extremely conservative and bigoted background. When I came out to my mother I was seventeen years old, and I remember thinking to myself that I needed to prepare myself before-hand. I knew that she was going to kick me out of my house, that if I didn't have a plan in place I would become just another statistic of homeless youth in America.

So I set my plan in place, and was accepted to go to a school in Kentucky shortly after I revealed the information to my mother. Unfortunately things didn't quite go as planned on my graceful exit.

I will never forget sitting on that couch, looking at my mother in her chair, and just sobbing, letting her know that I had something that "I needed to tell her." When I finally said the words "I'm gay" we both lost it. Myself in a pool of tears, and my mother's first words out of her mouth were "I believe it's a choice. You are not my son. You are an incarnation of the devil." Had my mother known about gay conversion therapy, she'd have signed me up right then and there. After a few choice words furthering from her I resorted off to my room. I remember feeling ultimately defeated, but also very light. This huge weight had finally come off of me, and it was out there in the world.

Later that night my mother invited the Bishop of our church, as well as fellow priesthood to come and give me a prayer. It turned out to be a lot closer to an exorcism with anointed oil and all. My mother felt a sense of relief that her religion had come to her aid, and that she was going to best the "devil inside of me." 

That at around 3am I ran away. I slept in the park, took a small suitcase with me, and called my friend's the next day. I cried, and had to unveil to them the unbecoming family that I had. The issues surrounding myself, and my mother, and why I had to get away for my own safety.

I will say to this day that I was gifted the most amazing set of friends that saw me no differently as a person than I was the day before. Their parent's graciously took me into their home for two weeks until I was able to take the money I had saved up, fly off to Kentucky, and get myself an education. I am also extremely grateful for other family members that I have who helped me get through my college years. 

I very well could have ended up as another statistic for queer youth suicide rates

Eight years later and my mother and I still have no real connection. I text her every time I move with my address just in case she needs to update any emergency logs. This past Christmas was the first time I decided I wouldn't reach out to her, nor any of my family members first, just to see who was thinking about me during the holiday season. I'm unhappy to report that my communication with almost all of my family members has ceased to this day. Fortunately I have my sister, but she and I have a rocky relationship, something that dwells not from my sexuality, but of other problems in it's own entirety that I won't divulge here.

Though I always say family are those that I choose to surround myself with, and not the ones I was born into. With that sentiment in mind, I have a wonderful group of friends and family that I keep close-knit to my heart. We keep in contact constantly, and make sure that one another are being model citizens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From here I'd like to open the floor to questions about the queer community and anything that you'd might like further delved into. I also openly ask that you express any questions, and commentary in a respectful way following the MadCast Code of Conduct, but please do not be afraid to being too politically correct. This is an open discussion.

Questions I've had so far that people want asked, and that I will keep anonymous:

1) "Why do so many guys change their voice when they come out?"

"It's not so much that a kid who is going to become gay later in life is going to say "I want to sound like a woman" so much as a kid is identifying, here is a particular speaker, and here is a particular facet of that person's speech that sort of captures what I find so engaging about them, and I'm going to emulate that."

2) What are gay bars like? 

"Gay bars vary just as any other bar does. Some are very campy and serve lots of cocktails and play pounding commercial house music, others are cheap dive bars that sell cheap beer and lots of it.

One thing most gay bars aren't is hypersexual places: remember the recurring scenes in the Police Academy movies where they end up in 'The Blue Oyster', where officers are sent as a prank only to find lots of beardy men in leather who they are then forced to dance with. Yeah, they're not like that. Or rather, most gay bars aren't hypersexual. There are leather bars and there are rather tacky sex bars where you can see porn stars having sex live on stage or, indeed, go out into the backroom and have some yourself. But they are very much the tiny minority and you have to go out of your way to find such places. Usually you have to pay a cover charge to get in and some will enforce a dress code. These are pretty rare and you have to know what you are looking for to find such places—you aren't just going to wander into such places without knowing that you are going there.

(The fun thing with the perception that most gay bars are hypersexual: once I was out drinking in a gay bar in Soho. With us, there was a younger guy who hadn't been out on the scene much. A friend went to the men's room, and then came back and told the younger guy that there was an S&M dungeon downstairs next to the toilets. Said younger friend came back from his next toilet visit rather disappointed that he didn't find the dungeon that was promised.)

Mostly gay bars are just bars with gay people in them. You can have a drink. Sometimes they serve food. What goes on in them? Well, there are people drinking, dancing and having a good time. Sometimes there's entertainment: drag queens or live comedy or quiz nights or bingo. Usually there's just people drinking and chatting.

                                                                                                                                          ----

Anyway, the gay bar as an institution is far less 'scary' in reality than cultural depictions in popular media make it out to be—most of the time, they are just bars with gay people in them, drinking and enjoying themselves." - Tom Morris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see you've opened the floor for this discussion, double! Coming from another country that definitely has a lot further to go than the US, it always seems to me that the LGBTQ+ community here in the States is very lucky, and have it a lot easier than in other places, which quickly turns my brain into a "what are they complaining about?" train of thought. It's not fair, since that sort of mentality is not constructive at all, but it's a question nonetheless and reading your posts kind of answers my questions. Also, what happens in the U.S definitely shapes what happens in my country 5,10 or 20 years later, so the battles being fought here will most certainly ripple into Chile in the future. 

I was having a discussion with my boyfriend about a question that came to mind, and I'd like to ask it here since I'm sure you understand LGBTQ+ culture a lot more than me. Keep in mind I don't judge either way, I'm just genuinely curious about this. In order to realize, decide, or come to the conclusion (Whichever verb or action applies, I'm not really sure) that you are bisexual, do you have to have had a relationship with both genders? The question came up because a female friend of mine posted a buch of things about being bi after saying she was just an ally of the LGBTQ+ community for years, and having only had romantic relationships with guys. Now, even though it's not always the case, I'm sure there are people that make these claims online (And never in person) just to get some attention. I'm not sure if this is the case here or not, but the whole situation got me wondering whether you can actually know for sure without having ever lived through it.

Personally, my kind of open but not really savvy on the subject brain went no way, you need to have empirical evidence of having kissed a girl AND a boy in order to affirm that you are bi. And then I thought about it more, and decided that in order to determine, or come to the conclusion that you are, for example, a man who isn't comfortable in his body, because you should have been a woman, you haven't really been a woman and yet I am comfortable with agreeing that in that case you're transgender. So I have no idea, and I'm not even sure it's important or not when you're determining your sexuality. Maybe just the feeling that there could be sexual attraction to both is enough? No clue.

What's your experience, or thoughts, about this? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, MadCast: Hitori said:

I'm just genuinely curious about this. In order to realize, decide, or come to the conclusion (Whichever verb or action applies, I'm not really sure) that you are bisexual, do you have to have had a relationship with both genders?

 

8 minutes ago, MadCast: Hitori said:

What's your experience, or thoughts, about this? 

Many men that I've dated that identify as bi will openly date a woman if they meet one that meets their standards, but are predominantly attracted to men, as their dating history generally provides. It just depends on their preference at the time, much like someone who is gender-fluid identifies as not having a fixed gender can sway more masculine, feminine, or androgynous depending on the way they feel.

I have a friend of mine who fully identifies as bi, but has only dated women. She tells me all the time that the right man just hasn't come along, but she's also hooked up with them from time to time. It's just a matter of connection.

To add my own personal experience to the question on "do you have to have a relationship with both genders?" I never had a relationship before I knew I was gay. I've known I was gay since I was twelve years old. I didn't start understanding the sexual preferences behind it till later into my high school years, but it's definitely something that I just inherently knew.

Much like people who are trans will tell you they know they were born into the wrong bodies at young ages, (e.g. 4-7 years old.)

So in short, no, I don't think you need to have a relationship to understand your sexual preferences to people.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to add, if anyone has any questions their too shy to ask on a public forum, I'm more than happy to answer them if you just DM me your question and I'll quote the question anonymously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did the rainbow flag become a symbol of pride?

"It goes back to 1978, when the artist Gilbert Baker, an openly gay man and a drag queen, designed the first rainbow flag. Baker later revealed that he was urged by Harvey Milk, one of the first openly gay elected officials in the U.S., to create a symbol of pride for the gay community. Baker decided to make that symbol a flag because he saw flags as the most powerful symbol of pride. As he later said in an interview, “Our job as gay people was to come out, to be visible, to live in the truth, as I say, to get out of the lie. A flag really fit that mission, because that’s a way of proclaiming your visibility or saying, ‘This is who I am!’” Baker saw the rainbow as a natural flag from the sky, so he adopted eight colors for the stripes, each color with its own meaning (hot pink for sex, red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, turquoise for art, indigo for harmony, and violet for spirit).

The first versions of the rainbow flag were flown on June 25, 1978, for the San Francisco Gay Freedom Day parade. Baker and a team of volunteers had made them by hand, and now he wanted to mass-produce the flag for consumption by all. However, because of production issues, the pink and turquoise stripes were removed and indigo was replaced by basic blue, which resulted in the contemporary six-striped flag (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet). Today this is the most common variant of the rainbow flag, with the red stripe on top, as in a natural rainbow. The various colors came to reflect both the immense diversity and the unity of the LGBT community.

It was not until 1994 that the rainbow flag was truly established as the symbol for LGBT pride. That year Baker made a mile-long version for the 25th anniversary of the Stonewall riots. Now the rainbow flag is an international symbol for LGBT pride and can be seen flying proudly, during both the promising times and the difficult ones, all around the world." - Brittanica 

There's also stories of other colors being added and removed, but the availability of fabric colors in those days changed, which led us to the current rainbow flag we have now. There are many different variations you can find for different cultures inside the queer community, each one still utilizing the rainbow flag as a base of pride in some way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd also like to add to this that the video has attached a fundraiser for The Trevor Project:

The Trevor Project's mission is to end suicide among gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning (LGBTQ) young people. The Trevor Project offers a suite of crisis intervention and suicide prevention programs, including TrevorLifeline, TrevorText, and TrevorChat as well as a peer-to-peer social network support for LGBTQ young people, TrevorSpace. Trevor also offers an education program with resources for youth-serving adults and organizations, a legislative advocacy department fighting for pro-LGBTQ legislation and against anti-LGBTQ rhetoric/policy positions, and conducts research to discover the most effective means to help young LGBTQ people in crisis and end suicide.

  • Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24.
  • LGB youth seriously contemplate suicide at almost three times the rate of heterosexual youth.
  • LGB youth are almost five times as likely to have attempted suicide compared to heterosexual youth.
  • Of all the suicide attempts made by youth, LGB youth suicide attempts were almost five times as likely to require medical treatment than those of heterosexual youth.
  • Suicide attempts by LGB youth and questioning youth are 4 to 6 times more likely to result in injury, poisoning, or overdose that requires treatment from a doctor or nurse, compared to their straight peers.
  • In a national study, 40% of transgender adults reported having made a suicide attempt. 92% of these individuals reported having attempted suicide before the age of 25.
  • LGB youth who come from highly rejecting families are 8.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide as LGB peers who reported no or low levels of family rejection.
  • 1 out of 6 students nationwide (grades 9–12) seriously considered suicide in the past year.
  • Each episode of LGBT victimization, such as physical or verbal harassment or abuse, increases the likelihood of self-harming behavior by 2.5 times on average.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a friendly reminder: 

Celebrating Pride month is giving to queer not selling to queer. Creating products with rainbows on it for queer and trans people to buy isn't celebrating pride month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, I have only been hanging around the MadCast Discord for a short while, but I am constantly in awe of how awesome the community is. Not only do you post a truly educational thread on gay rights and where we are now compared to just 50 years ago, but you open the floor for others to speak which is above and beyond. I just got out of the Air Force after 10 years and I feel like the military will always be behind. Racism and bigotry is what I have had to deal with my entire career and I am a straight white male. Thank you for posting this! It is instances like this that I can educate my kids and set a good example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, BANJO RL said:

You know, I have only been hanging around the MadCast Discord for a short while, but I am constantly in awe of how awesome the community is. Not only do you post a truly educational thread on gay rights and where we are now compared to just 50 years ago, but you open the floor for others to speak which is above and beyond. I just got out of the Air Force after 10 years and I feel like the military will always be behind. Racism and bigotry is what I have had to deal with my entire career and I am a straight white male. Thank you for posting this! It is instances like this that I can educate my kids and set a good example.

I appreciate your input. I'm glad that you're enjoying our community.

I implore you after all your time in that setting, if you want another perspective, feel free to reach out. You're welcome to ask any questions you'd like, either publicly here, or you can PM me on Discord and I can keep it anonymous if you'd prefer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really glad that we have a community in which we are able to have open discussions like this. My opinion in unpopular, but that does not at all imply I have anything against the people of the LGBTQ+ community. Ever since more and more people have been becoming more open and I have seen many trans, gay, and queer people at my school, I have begun to ask myself questions as to what changed? How did the mindset of society change so drastically from post WWII to now? It still blows my mind how quickly we are evolving. These questions left me to go down a road I never thought I would go down; a religious one.

My parents are extremely religious because they immigrated to the U.S from Pakistan, after my father served for the Pakistani military. I have been taught that the core actions and motives of the LGBTQ+ community are wrong, that being gay and having same-sex relationships is wrong, and that being something other than God intended you to be is also wrong. But the teachings of Islam are also very difficult to follow, and the interpretations of Islam are often on very polarizing sides.

On one side we are taught to be loving, excepting, and unprejudiced, for we are unaware of one's inconveniences and life experiences. But then we teach our children to hate those who go against these same teachings? Though I haven't even gone through all of high school, I think that I am finally beginning to find a good medium between strict religion and acceptance. 

I find no coincidence that the more people start coming out of their shell and and discuss these once taboo topics, the more I see people saying they are Atheist, and the more I see "God" becoming a bad word. In my book, The Quran, there are 25 signs that the world is coming to an end. Here are just a few.

  • People will stop offering the prayers
  • Dishonesty will be the way of life
  • Falsehood will become a virtue
  • People will mortgage their faith for worldly gain
  • Usury and bribery will become legitimate
  • There will be acute famine at the time
  • There will be no shame amongst people
  • Many people will worship Satan
  • There will be no respect for elderly people
  • People will start killing each other without any reason

Others include that mankind will build buildings that touch the sky, and the world will slowly begin to run out of water and basic resources. This does scare me, and since these signs are written in a book that was brought to mankind around 609 C.E, I have been making a conscious effort to get closer to God. So though I do disagree with same-sex relationships, etc. I don't hate those who involve themselves with those activities. Because those are not the core actions of motives of the LGBTQ+ community, it is acceptance, and acceptance is something that at this day and age, we all need to familiarize ourselves with. So though I disagree with you, I don't hate you, and I hope that this doesn't divide any future people I meet or any future friends I make, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

4 hours ago, MadCast: Al Shifra said:

These questions left me to go down a road I never thought I would go down; a religious one.

Reading further into your post I understand that diverting from religion isn't the road I'm going to ask you to go down, but I would love to ask you this. Taking religion out of it entirely, where do you disagree with the queer community? What actions, stances (politically or otherwise,) do you disagree with?

Not referencing you specifically, but when I ask men that I generally get the response of "well, lesbians are okay, cause they're hot" or some other perverse fantasy, etc. I've only ever received a few valid responses to it, which generally is just some childish form of "it's icky." 

Which I know the question pulls away from your comment entirely, but as someone who was raised in a very religious upbringing, and understands that side very well. I'm always curious as to what others on that side of the fence have to think when they take away what they were taught. 

4 hours ago, MadCast: Al Shifra said:

So though I disagree with you, I don't hate you, and I hope that this doesn't divide any future people I meet or any future friends I make, thanks.

It won't affect friends you make, it's your lifestyle vs my lifestyle, but just because we don't agree fundamentally on that doesn't mean that you can't be cordial and respectful of each other. It's an agreement to disagree. I have no ill will of hate, only tolerance and acceptance. I don't focus my energy on hate, I try to be more optimistic and looking forward to the future. What you might see as the end of days, I see as evolution in society, free will, and thought.  It won't keep progressing though without conversations just like these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, MadCast: Al Shifra said:

I find no coincidence that the more people start coming out of their shell and and discuss these once taboo topics, the more I see people saying they are Atheist, and the more I see "God" becoming a bad word.

 

I'd like to offer a different take on this particular pattern. I grew up in a household that veered back to religion after my mother had a debilitating stroke. I was enrolled in a private Christian elementary and middle school, and a scholarship afforded me the opportunity to go to a Christian High School, and I spent a semester at a Christian University before I dropped out and chose a different path in life. I consider myself Christian still, and I still read the Bible and go to church occasionally. I spent a lot of time thinking about my faith and theology as a young man, and if I may draw attention to another of your sentences-

4 hours ago, MadCast: Al Shifra said:

On one side we are taught to be loving, excepting, and unprejudiced, for we are unaware of one's inconveniences and life experiences. But then we teach our children to hate those who go against these same teachings?

This is true of the Christian faith as well as the Islamic one. I cannot speak authoritatively to the actions of Imams or other leaders in Islamic faith and/or its institutions specifically, but I am aware of the same rot of hypocrisy between the teachings of the Quran and the actions of its professed believers that exists in much the same fashion in Christianity, especially American Evangelicalism, which contains a nest of poisonous vipers I'd like nothing more than to strangle. When you reach your majority in life and have grown up in a faith and you find yourself talking to people you've been told to admonish, fear, detest, and destroy and discover they are more of the Lord's lost people like yourself, you are presented with a difficult question. Is the Book wrong, are the people who taught you wrong, or are those people truly deserving of the condemnation and hate you've been taught? For many people, it is a burden they cannot easily shoulder. They either break from a faith they feel has deceived them, walk away from the dishonest people of a faith who have misrepresented its teaching systemically, or firmly commit to the hypocritical foundation of a permanent state of 'Otherness' for people 'not like them,' an Otherness that makes them deserving of the worst fates.

 

To me, the real evil and suffering in the situation above is that we have allowed small people to reach heights they do not deserve, and to thereafter buy-in and support the dictates of those same small people who would use our faiths to their own destructive, selfish ends; small people who have done so with such a level of success that they have succeeded in pushing an entire generation away from faith when their hypocritical selfishness is laid bare. 

Edited by MadCast: VoShay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MadCast: doublestufforeo said:

Taking religion out of it entirely, where do you disagree with the queer community? What actions, stances (politically or otherwise,) do you disagree with?

I personally disagree with the LGBTQ+ community purely on the sense that God has created men AND women, and I believe that it isn't a coincidence that one can not reproduce without the other. However, speaking on a more modern area of this subject, I also disagree with integrating trans athletes into the division of the sport that they identify as (especially for trans women in women's sports). This is because it is scientifically proven that men have much more muscle mass and are, on average, faster and have better stamina then women, thus leaving the biological girls a disadvantage in the sport that they play. For example, I remember reading an article about a biological boy that identified as a women and went on the women's wrestling team and became the state champion (when the year before he came in 3rd for the state competition as a boy).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

2 hours ago, MadCast: VoShay said:

To me, the real evil and suffering in the situation above is that we have allowed small people to reach heights they do not deserve, and to thereafter buy-in and support the dictates of those same small people who would use our faiths to their own destructive, selfish ends; small people who have done so with such a level of success that they have succeeded in pushing an entire generation away from faith when their hypocritical selfishness is laid bare. 

I 100% agree with this statement, there are absolute extremes on all sides of every religion, and I (as well as every other brown family I have interacted with) have suffered the consequences for it being called a terrorist, being questioned for multiple hours without reason, getting pulled over for stopping at a stop sign, etc. However, it is a reality that I have learned to deal with. This society has become a tough one to live in not only for the racist and ignorant remarks, but because it is so easy to be the same. So many groups and crimes and discrimination that needs to be recognized, and the hypocrisy that I hate the most, is the one where my parents always complain about discrimination but they are automatically judgmental and are quick to conclusions once they see someone who openly identifies as something other than straight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

13 minutes ago, MadCast: Al Shifra said:

However, speaking on a more modern area of this subject, I also disagree with integrating trans athletes into the division of the sport that they identify as (especially for trans women in women's sports). This is because it is scientifically proven that men have much more muscle mass and are, on average, faster and have better stamina then women, thus leaving the biological girls a disadvantage in the sport that they play.

If I might chip in here, I agree to an extent with this. I strongly believe that, for the most part, gender is a social construct that is simply used to try and keep people in tidy boxes. I don't see any need for clothes to be divided into men and women, or for the colors pink and blue to be used for nearly everything related to baby showers and newborns. I don't care for the belief that boys shouldn't cry, or that female emotions are always over-complicated.

However, I also tend to think that most people who identify as trans may simply be confused or influenced by these very social constructs. This comes from personal experience, as I used to think I was a trans female-to-male in high school when I liked video games and cargo pants and hated pink flowers and wearing dresses. Obviously I now know that I don't need to give a flying fuck what "society" thinks and I dress and talk the way I want to even if it means I come off as being butch or something. That does not mean that I am against transsexual people or think that they're stupid. I support everyone's happiness and believe you should be allowed to do whatever you want to do (within reason) to live a happy comfortable life, but there are still certain aspects of society that I feel are negatively impacted because they rely on the rigidity of logic and don't care for your feelings. I think that your biological sex should be referenced in regards to anything that is either:

A - divided by standardized gender (since one reason divisions still exist in major sports is due to biology), or
B - directly related to the mechanics of your physical sex, such as medical purposes or the type of bathroom facilities you need

Outside of those types of situations, I don't care what you want me to call you as long as you're a decent human being and we can respect each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jonathon Morris has a good quote that I try to remember when having any discussion on controversial topics:

"The greatest evidence of authentic good will is the way we treat people with whom we passionately disagree with"

That being said, I have really no qualms with LGBTQ other than trans and sports. Specifically male transitioning to female in female specific competition. If there were some regulation on hormones and testerone levels I would like to see some research on how level the playing field would be. As of right now, I wouldnt want to see a UFC fight between a male and female, the thought makes me cringe as domestic violence infuriates me and this gives me similar vibes.

Other than that, as long as nothing affects someone negatively, I'm pretty much OK with everything else.

On a side note, I hate this mob mentality belief system. For example, I lean conservative but I don't stand behind every single belief that conservatives do. I also believe that church and government needs to stay separate. Sin and law are not the same.  I believe people lose the ability to think for themselves when they label themself.

 

Also, I truly believe we are in a period of awakening in the sense that people realize that some hate or bigotry that was passed down from older generations was just out of ignorance and we are learning how to be better people.

HOWEVER --- our culture has so much hate and selfishness towards humans in general that we lash out and say things that are interpreted as bigoted,racist,homophobic when it is a much deeper problem. You see this in video games a lot. People will get so mad that they will find a weakness in your armor and try to exploit it to break you down. Racist remarks,  homophobic slurs.. I believe they come from deep self disdain and the desire to hurt others more than just simply being racist or homophobic and I truly believe this is the root of a lot of problems and conflict in our society today.

 

I'm sure some of you might roll your eyes because of hearing me say some grouchy or mean things sometimes but I realize I have diarrhea of the mouth at times and I do try to apologize when I do and it is something I work on and wrestle with daily.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

25 minutes ago, MadCast: Usefully Useless said:

HOWEVER --- our culture has so much hate and selfishness towards humans in general that we lash out and say things that are interpreted as bigoted,racist,homophobic when it is a much deeper problem. You see this in video games a lot. People will get so mad that they will find a weakness in your armor and try to exploit it to break you down. Racist remarks,  homophobic slurs.. I believe they come from deep self disdain and the desire to hurt others more than just simply being racist or homophobic and I truly believe this is the root of a lot of problems and conflict in our society today.

I believe that whenever someone says something racist or homophobic it is rarely out of some deep desire to to cause hurt to the person. I think it is more of a spur of the moment action that had no thought behind it. When I am with my friends, the amount of things we say to each other (especially when we are mad) are insane to think about sometimes. However, if I do run into a toxic person or someone who is better than me at a game, I often do cuss and say racial slurs, not because I hate certain races or groups, but because I am simply mad and I don't think of it as a genuinely hurtful phrase. If I had a penny for every time I said "faggot" or "Motherf-er" then I'd be able to by a Lamborghini by now. The people who say these things on impulse are simply doing it because they were taught that saying these things is not big deal because at that particular time, it wouldn't mean anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

34 minutes ago, MadCast: Usefully Useless said:

That being said, I have really no qualms with LGBTQ other than trans and sports. Specifically male transitioning to female in female specific competition. If there were some regulation on hormones and testerone levels I would like to see some research on how level the playing field would be. As of right now, I wouldnt want to see a UFC fight between a male and female, the thought makes me cringe as domestic violence infuriates me and this gives me similar vibes.

I completly agree with this statement, though I am not heavy into the MMA and UFC world, I have been boxing for close to 2 and a half years now, and we haven't had the issue of integrating trans people into the sport yet, but the amount of boxing politics that will be generated will be unimaginable. Also, knowing that nearly every boxing promoter is just a snake, they would promote the hell out of that fight and exploit the fact that one of the opponents is a trans person. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

 

2 hours ago, MadCast: Al Shifra said:

I believe that whenever someone says something racist or homophobic it is rarely out of some deep desire to to cause hurt to the person. I think it is more of a spur of the moment action that had no thought behind it. When I am with my friends, the amount of things we say to each other (especially when we are mad) are insane to think about sometimes. However, if I do run into a toxic person or someone who is better than me at a game, I often do cuss and say racial slurs, not because I hate certain races or groups, but because I am simply mad and I don't think of it as a genuinely hurtful phrase. If I had a penny for every time I said "faggot" or "Motherf-er" then I'd be able to by a Lamborghini by now. The people who say these things on impulse are simply doing it because they were taught that saying these things is not big deal because at that particular time, it wouldn't mean anything.

Not saying people are evil deep down but in our current climate kids are not taught that you can lose gracefully. Everyone gets a trophy and people can't stand losing so bad or are unhappy with their own life that they want to bring other people down. I know personally that since the last couple of years of hard times, it's much easier to rage put now than in previous years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this